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Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing.
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From: "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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=20
I'm not sure any of the aftermarket muffers for the RX7 or RX8 would do
any better. For street cars they are located further away from the
exhaust ports and are down stream of a catalatic converter. Street
rotarys just don't see the extended high power demand we place on our
systems. Streight racing muffers may work. I have always been under
the impression that racing mufflers were repacked or changed out
friquently. But I could be completely wrong.=20
=20
Bobby
________________________________
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of William Wilson
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:35 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing.
=20
I agree completely, especially about the EGT.
Don't use off the shelf mufflers, designed for piston engine
applications. Call Racing Beat or one of the other rotary tuners and
buy one of their mufflers specifically intended for rotary racing
applications. You don't need inconel, but you can't just grab any old
muffler, even a stainless one, and expect it to not fall apart.
I really recommend anyone using a rotary engine in an aircraft to join
the RX-7 forums and see what they are doing. There are some things you
can do in a car that you can't get away with in an aircraft, but if they
can't get away with it in their car, don't think it will hold up in a
plane.
Same thing goes for cooling systems. Aircraft builders may have unique
adventures in ductwork, but most of the rest of the problems have been
dealt with and solved by the car guys. There are a lot more of them,
and they've been at it longer.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:
Bobby;
=20
Very capable handling of an emergency. We are thankful for that.
=20
A couple of comments. It seems to me your EGT readings are suspiciously
low. I run NA 9.0:1 rotors in my 20B, and the peak EGTs are up around
1675F. At rich climb they are maybe 50 less; and I lean to just under
1600 for lean cruise. I'm measuring about 2" form the port. So maybe
your muffler is seeing higher temps than you think.
=20
We've heard of a number of muffler failures on this list. It troubles me
that some of you are taking the risk of flying an off-the-shelf muffler;
the internal failure of which can cause blocking of the exhaust flow. It
seems to be a known risk of an off-airport landing. There are options.
Yeah; a custom inconel muffler (or some heavy walled 321) will set you
back some bucks; but . . .=20
=20
Al
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 3:03 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing.=20
=20
It's supercharged. My EGT's never get over 1540F. Most of the time they
run in the 1400's. I am also not 100% convinced the muffler was to
blame. But it seems to fit the symptoms. I can't confirm the muffler was
blocked after landing while trying to taxi. One theory is the exhaust
pressure was enough to keep all the little pieces in place until after
shutdown. Then towing the plane shook everything loose. Wonder if I
could talk Mark S. into sticking a banana in the tail pipe on a full
power ground run to duplicate the problem? This is my second HP-2
muffler in about 100 hours of engine time. It may have 25 hours of
flight time. The first one was inside the cowl and angled down and back.
It lost all the mesh and cone material. The angle may have helped some
of the loose material exit the muffler. But it's all speculation.=20
=20
Bobby
=20
________________________________
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 3:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing.=20
=20
I believe he is supercharged, not turboed.
BW
=20
________________________________
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing.=20
=20
Bobby,
That is an excellent job of both flying and troubleshooting to discover
the cause of the problem. I am wondering why you have a muffler if you
have a turbo?
=20
My Hushpower is welded in and up inside the cowl. I would not be able
to see inside if or remove or replace it with the current setup. This
incident has really made me start to think about the muffler.. Thanks
for the great report!
=20
Bill B
=20
________________________________
=20
=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:normal'>I’m not sure any of =
the aftermarket
muffers for the RX7 or RX8 would do any better. For street cars they are
located further away from the exhaust ports and are down stream of a =
catalatic
converter. Street rotarys just don’t see the extended high power =
demand we
place on our systems. Streight racing muffers may work. =
</span></font></b></strong> I
have always been under the impression that racing mufflers were repacked =
or
changed out friquently. But I could be completely wrong. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Bobby</span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Rotary motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>William Wilson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 20, =
2011 5:35
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Rotary
motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [FlyRotary] Re: =
Forced
Landing.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I agree =
completely,
especially about the EGT.<br>
<br>
Don't use off the shelf mufflers, designed for piston engine
applications. Call Racing Beat or one of the other rotary tuners =
and buy
one of their mufflers specifically intended for rotary racing
applications. You don't need inconel, but you can't just grab any =
old
muffler, even a stainless one, and expect it to not fall apart.<br>
<br>
I really recommend anyone using a rotary engine in an aircraft to join =
the RX-7
forums and see what they are doing. There are some things you can =
do in a
car that you can't get away with in an aircraft, but if they can't get =
away
with it in their car, don't think it will hold up in a plane.<br>
<br>
Same thing goes for cooling systems. Aircraft builders may have =
unique
adventures in ductwork, but most of the rest of the problems have been =
dealt
with and solved by the car guys. There are a lot more of them, and
they've been at it longer.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Al Gietzen <<a
href=3D"mailto:ALVentures@cox.net">ALVentures@cox.net</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'>Bobby;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'>Very capable handling of an emergency. We are thankful =
for
that.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'>A couple of comments. It seems to me your EGT readings =
are
suspiciously low. I run NA 9.0:1 rotors in my 20B, and the peak =
EGTs are
up around 1675F. At rich climb they are maybe 50 less; and I lean =
to just
under 1600 for lean cruise. I’m measuring about 2” =
form the port.
So maybe your muffler is seeing higher temps than you =
think.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'>We’ve heard of a number of muffler failures on this =
list. It
troubles me that some of you are taking the risk of flying an =
off-the-shelf
muffler; the internal failure of which can cause blocking of the exhaust =
flow.
It seems to be a known risk of an off-airport landing. There are
options. Yeah; a custom inconel muffler (or some heavy walled 321) =
will
set you back some bucks; but . . . </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'>Al</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Rotary
motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" =
target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>]
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of =
</span></b><st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Bobby J. Hughes</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 20, =
2011 3:03
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Rotary
motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [FlyRotary] Re: =
Forced
Landing. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It’s supercharged. My =
EGT’s never get over
1540F. Most of the time they run in the 1400’s. I am also not 100% =
convinced
the muffler was to blame. But it seems to fit the symptoms. I =
can’t confirm the
muffler was blocked after landing while trying to taxi. One theory is =
the
exhaust pressure was enough to keep all the little pieces in place until =
after
shutdown. Then towing the plane shook everything loose. Wonder if I =
could talk
Mark S. into sticking a banana in the tail pipe on a full power ground =
run to
duplicate the problem? This is my second HP-2 muffler in about 100 hours =
of
engine time. It may have 25 hours of flight time. The first one was =
inside the cowl
and angled down and back. It lost all the mesh and cone material. The =
angle may
have helped some of the loose material exit the muffler. But it’s =
all
speculation. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bobby</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Rotary motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" =
target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>]
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bryan =
Winberry<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 20, =
2011 3:25
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Rotary
motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [FlyRotary] Re: =
Forced
Landing. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I believe he is supercharged, not =
turboed.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>BW</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Rotary motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" =
target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>]
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill =
Bradburry<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 20, =
2011 5:11
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Rotary
motors in aircraft</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [FlyRotary] Re: =
Forced Landing.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bobby,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>That is an excellent job of both =
flying
and troubleshooting to discover the cause of the problem. I am =
wondering
why you have a muffler if you have a turbo?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My Hushpower is welded in and up =
inside
the cowl. I would not be able to see inside if or remove or =
replace it
with the current setup. This incident has really made me start to =
think
about the muffler.. Thanks for the great =
report!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bill B</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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