X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2k) with ESMTP id 4864817 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:30:06 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Inhw+Jdt7z1D3BivGPfn2aw54OvUEJw5lAn/booRZkE= c=1 sm=0 a=OvCeXU5ZdQwA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=a6fqszs358PMc-HV9o0A:9 a=D670kbNpUsTfzLq2DbQA:7 a=RIqPw7W9_XRxLU-am0nnJ1auXVIA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=at0Q5_2dr5wA:10 a=GAhTUj2MbXab2M7a:21 a=VDAm4tQpG2Onyy_S:21 a=YyrLWxif0U_UMjrFj4EA:9 a=HMdEwaaUk48sQ5HkWEoA:7 a=KIQDtlV8cqQv-YOJf7gTVhDfFYEA:4 a=g22q0-4dttrgqK5U:21 a=arWMQI4xBZuhY7ZB:21 a=ZHUsY8zHUz0Vp2Os_2YA:9 a=UENqzrcIPdHyCehrNV5vzY07KacA:4 a=1Vq_FK4TplAA:10 a=51nItO4Ekp-e_3z1jNwA:9 a=-93pMeS6MN3XyhS5bu-x0K5xD4QA:4 a=9SQSOrgtHGne4zT3sTkA:9 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:62562] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 10/7C-13137-968595D4; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:29:30 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Things to check - [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 ... still Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:29:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBCC3A.6888DB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBCC3A.6888DB00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01CBCC3A.6888DB00" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01CBCC3A.6888DB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, One thing you might check - is your coolant "O" rings - if they are = compromised - combustion pressures can push mixture into your coolant = system during compression stoke lowering your chamber pressure. That = could show up as bubbles in the coolant or you might notice "oily" sheen = on top of your coolant if you can see it through your cap. You won't = always get green coolant fluid in your combustion chamber if an O ring = is compromised. The O ring can seal on the intake stroke because at most you have a = 14psi difference, but may not on the compression stroke where you can = have a 100 psi difference between coolant pressure (ambient) and chamber = pressure which could push past a compromised "O" ring. Also, if you take you engine down - check carefully in the coolant "O" = ring lans to make certain there are no cracks. I use a dentist pick (a = needle would probably work) and gentle pull it around the inside = corners - if it catches, examine that area closely. Another thing you want to check is your rotors apex seal slots. They = can wallow out through use (although you should not have that much use) = such that the apex seals do not ride vertically in the slot and sort of = lean over (as the supporting wall of the slot wallows out) and do not = seal as well as they should. I think Lynn suggested sticking an apex = seal in the slot (one end) and with the other end sticking 3" or so in = the air - measure how much you can measure by wiggling that end from one = side of the slot to the other. The far end of the apex seal should not = move more than 3/8". With new Rotors that again should not be a problem, but you are looking = for stretches and this is one {:>) Yes, it gets easier to pull and tear down an engine with practice - but, = it gets to be less fun each time {:>) Ed From: Chris Barber=20 Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 10:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 ... still Not sure how that would effect the lower compression though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 9:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 ... still Jeff, I shall give that a try Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Jeff Whaley [jwhaley@datacast.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 9:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 ... still Chris, try changing your spark plugs. If you=92ve caused damage to the = rotor springs from detonation, you=92ve also exposed the plugs to the = same force. I have never had a problem starting my engine except for this past = weekend =85 wouldn=92t start, I was blaming it on the cold, so it got = more pre-heat and eventually started exactly as you said, a lot of = cranking and liking the starter assist. Yesterday, same thing = wouldn=92t start =96 more pre-heat, still no joy. Pulled the plugs and = they were coated with black soot, so I went home, got a brand new set of = plugs =96 engine started right away and with no additional pre-heat. Jeff Whaley From: Chris Barber =20 Subject: Low Compression in rotor 2...still =20 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 03:29:28 +0000 =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 =20 =20 =20 To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered bad = apex seal springs in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation. I = cracked the keg and replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all = back up. While apart, I did not discover any damage other than the bad = springs. I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my = EC2's, I am still having problems with very hard starting. When I do = get it to start it is at full lean and I believe only if I switch over = to B. Once started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more = moderate setting (even if the tuning is still lacking) and it will run = on A or B about the same. I have reset A to factory settings. I do = have a bit larger injectors, per Mistrals recommendation, but did crank = her up to 22. MAP and adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid = point per the EC2 manual. It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 = seconds...betting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then = kinda just starts running as a continuation of the starter being turned, = instead of the engine actually "firing up". I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex = seals are nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am = only getting about 60 psi on the rear rotor. I am getting about 80 psi = on the front rotor, which is what I expected. =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 5873 (20110214) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. = Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01CBCC3A.6888DB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
One thing you might check - is your coolant "O" = rings - if=20 they are compromised - combustion pressures can push mixture into your = coolant=20 system during compression stoke lowering your chamber pressure.  = That could=20 show up as bubbles in the coolant or you might notice "oily" sheen on = top of=20 your coolant if you can see it through your cap.  You won't = always get=20 green coolant fluid in your combustion chamber if an O ring is=20 compromised.
 
 The O ring can seal on the intake stroke = because at=20 most you have a 14psi difference,  but may not on the compression = stroke=20 where you can have a 100 psi difference between coolant pressure = (ambient) and=20 chamber pressure which could push past a compromised "O" = ring.
 
Also, if you take you engine down - check = carefully in the=20 coolant "O" ring lans to make certain there are no cracks.  I use a = dentist=20 pick (a needle would probably work)  and gentle pull it around the = inside=20 corners - if it catches, examine that area closely.
 
Another thing you want to check is your rotors = apex seal=20 slots.  They can wallow out through use (although you should not = have that=20 much use) such that the apex seals do not ride vertically in the slot = and sort=20 of lean over (as the supporting wall of the slot wallows out) and do not = seal as=20 well as they should.  I think Lynn suggested sticking an apex seal = in the=20 slot (one end) and with the other end sticking 3" or so in the air - = measure how=20 much you can measure by wiggling that end from one side of the slot to = the=20 other.  The far end of the apex seal should not move more than=20 3/8".
With new Rotors that again should not be a = problem, but=20 you are looking for stretches and this is one {:>)
 
Yes, it gets easier to pull and tear down an = engine with=20 practice - but, it gets to be less fun each time {:>)
 
Ed
 

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 10:39 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 ...=20 still

Not sure how that would effect the lower compression = though.

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: = Monday,=20 February 14, 2011 9:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 = ...=20 still

Jeff,

 

I shall give that a try

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of Jeff Whaley [jwhaley@datacast.com]
Sent: Monday, = February=20 14, 2011 9:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Low compression in rotor 2 ... = still

Chris, try changing your spark plugs.  If = you=92ve caused=20 damage to the rotor springs from detonation, you=92ve also exposed the = plugs to=20 the same force.

I have never had a problem starting my engine = except for this=20 past weekend =85 wouldn=92t start, I was blaming it on the cold, so it = got more=20 pre-heat and eventually started exactly as you said, a lot of cranking = and=20 liking the starter assist.  Yesterday, same thing wouldn=92t start = =96 more=20 pre-heat, still no joy. Pulled the plugs and they were coated with black = soot,=20 so I went home, got a brand new set of plugs =96 engine started right = away and=20 with no additional pre-heat.

 

Jeff=20 Whaley

 

From:

Chris=20 Barber = <cbarber@texasattorney.net>

Subject:

Low=20 Compression in rotor 2...still

Date:

Mon,=20 14 Feb 2011 03:29:28 +0000

To:

Rotary=20 motors in aircraft=20 = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

<= /TD>



To = remind=20 y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered = bad apex seal=20 springs in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation.  I = cracked the=20 keg and replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all back = up. =20 While apart, I did not discover any damage other than the bad=20 springs.

 

I = have been=20 trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2's, I am = still=20 having problems with very hard starting.   When I do get = it to=20 start it is at full lean and I believe only if I switch over to = B. =20 Once started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more = moderate=20 setting (even if the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A = or B=20 about the same.  I have reset A to factory settings.  I = do have=20 a bit larger injectors, per Mistrals recommendation, but = did crank=20 her up to 22. MAP and adjust Mode 3 once started to just over = the mid=20 point per the EC2 manual.

 

It = takes an=20 extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 = seconds...betting=20 my starter is hating me) before it starts and then kinda = just=20 starts running as a continuation of the starter being turned, = instead of=20 the engine actually "firing up".

 

I = pulled the=20 plugs to check inside and unlike before all the = apex seals are=20 nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am only = getting=20 about 60 psi on the rear rotor.  I am getting about 80 psi on = the=20 front rotor, which is what I expected.

 

 

 



__________ Information from = ESET=20 NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5873 (20110214)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

This message, and the documents = attached hereto,=20 is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential=20 information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you = have=20 received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we = may=20 correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank=20 you.
------=_NextPart_001_0010_01CBCC3A.6888DB00-- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBCC3A.6888DB00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBCC3A.6888DB00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image002.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CBCC3A.6888DB00--