X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2k) with ESMTP id 4864734 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:31:56 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:27:08 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still Thread-Index: AQHLzDaKoibCTPlBdUCH8HGqoxoy2pQBHA4M Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:31:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035728C0C@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [99.98.105.202] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035728C0CFCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035728C0CFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Thanks for the reply. The compression gage I have has a button on it that acts like removing the = valve. Also, the reading on the front rotor are higher. Yes, while it is a difficult to determine since the needle jumps around, I = think I have trained myself well enough to get the readings. I am getting 60 psi on the rear rotor on all three pulses AND when I releas= e the button the cumulated psi is still at 60. I get the same events on th= e front, however, on the front, the readings are at 80 psi. I am my mothers primary care giver and have to tend to some errands for her= today (my "Sunday") so I will not likely get to the hangar today but I wil= l be pondering what is going on and be keeping my ears and eyes open as I c= an usually make some access to the internet. Again, while resigned to the idea of cracking open the engine, I am concern= ed that whatever the problem is may be missed AGAIN since I just went throu= gh this. I also meant to mention that the engine turns over smoothly and I do not he= ar/feel any grinding of parts. Thanks again. Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 5:00 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still Chris, Sorry to hear that you're still having hard starting problems. Just for cl= arification, are you reading 60 psi on all three rotor faces? Did you reme= mber to remove the schraeder valve from the compression gauge? Otherwise, = you're reading a compilation of all three, not each individual pulses. You= should get three separate readings. If one is high, followed by two low r= eadings, then it is likely a bad apex seal as a single apex seal will cause= low readings for two rotor faces. Mark On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Chris Barber > wrote: oh, and the initial/build lube has been with Marvel Mystery, Vaseline, asse= mbly lube with some cleaning fluid mixed in too. I am using Royal Purple S= ynthetic for my oiling, even though I broke the engine in initially with di= no oil. Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of bktrub@aol.com [= bktrub@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:27 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still This is a puzzler. How are you lubing the apex springs? Not that that has a= nything to do with it, just wondering. Also wonder how funtional the apex s= prings are when the motor is spinning- shouldn't centrifugal force drive th= e seals out against the rotor housing walls? I hate to be a pessimist, but did you check the side seals and corner seals= also? Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Chris Barber > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 7:29 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Low Compression in rotor 2...still To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered bad apex seal s= prings in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation. I cracked the keg and = replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all back up. While apart, I d= id not discover any damage other than the bad springs. I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2's, I= am still having problems with very hard starting. When I do get it to st= art it is at full lean and I believe only if I switch over to B. Once star= ted I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate setting (even = if the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B about the same. = I have reset A to factory settings. I do have a bit larger injectors, per = Mistrals recommendation, but did crank her up to 22. MAP and adjust Mode 3 = once started to just over the mid point per the EC2 manual. It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 seconds...b= etting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then kinda just starts= running as a continuation of the starter being turned, instead of the engi= ne actually "firing up". I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex seals are= nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am only getting= about 60 psi on the rear rotor. I am getting about 80 psi on the front ro= tor, which is what I expected. Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor. I am confidant that I got i= t together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so confidant as the fa= cts is the facts. The rear rotor is only 60 psi which IF I understand corre= ctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the eng= ine does not seem as smooth when running as it has in the past). I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks but = kept it at lower power. Today, however I did run it up for several seconds= and was able to produce a steady 6300 RPM at 33.4 MAP. I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set", but I am= not really thinking this holds water...or compression for that matter. I = also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did come up a bit, but = the REALLY hard start remains. I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what I mu= st have missed. But since I am pretty sure I did it right before WHAT, pra= y tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/if I open her up= again???? Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a teardown. FY= I, the plugs looked like I would have expected....brownish ashy with no oil= build up. Also, I am not having any current indication of coolant in the c= hambers (don't ask me how I know how to look for that tell tale sign [-( Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or attemp= ts. I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me..... Chris Barber Houston --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035728C0CFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

The compression gage I have has a button on it that acts like removing t= he valve.  Also, the reading on the front rotor are higher.

 

Yes, while it is a difficult to determine since the needle jumps around,= I think I have trained myself well enough to get the readings.=

 

I am getting 60 psi on the rear rotor on all three pulses AND when = I release the button the cumulated psi is still at 60.  I = get the same events on the front, however, on the front, the readings are a= t 80 psi.

 

I am my mothers primary care giver and have to tend to some errands for = her today (my "Sunday") so I will not likely get to t= he hangar today but I will be pondering what is going on and be keeping my = ears and eyes open as I can usually make some access to the internet.

 

Again, while resigned to the idea of cracking open the engine, I am = ;concerned that whatever the problem is may be missed AGAIN since I = just went through this.

 

I also meant to mention that the engine turns over smoothly and I do not= hear/feel any grinding of parts.

 

Thanks again.

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 5:00 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still

Chris, 

Sorry to hear that you're still having hard starting problems.  J= ust for clarification, are you reading 60 psi on all three rotor faces? &nb= sp;Did you remember to remove the schraeder valve from the compression gaug= e?  Otherwise, you're reading a compilation of all three, not each individual pulses.  You should get three separ= ate readings.  If one is high, followed by two low readings, then it i= s likely a bad apex seal as a single apex seal will cause low readings for = two rotor faces.  

Mark

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Chris Barber <= span dir=3D"ltr"> <cbarber@= texasattorney.net> wrote:

oh, and the initial/build lube has been with Marvel Mystery, Vase= line, assembly lube with some cleaning fluid mixed in too.  I a= m using Royal Purple Synthetic for my oiling, even though I broke the engin= e in initially with dino oil.

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on beh= alf of bktrub@aol.com [bktrub@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:27 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still

This is a puzzler. How are you lubing the apex springs? Not that that = has anything to do with it, just wondering. Also wonder how funtional the a= pex springs are when the motor is spinning- shouldn't centrifugal force dri= ve the seals out against the rotor housing walls?
 
I hate to be a pessimist, but did you check the side seals and corner = seals also?
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 7:29 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Low Compression in rotor 2...still

 
I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2= 's, I am still having problems with very hard starting= .   When I do get it to start it is at full lean and I believe on= ly if I switch over to B.  Once started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate setting (even if = the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B about the same. = ; I have reset A to factory settings.  I do have a bit larger injector= s, per Mistrals recommendation, but did crank her up to 22. MAP and adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid= point per the EC2 manual.
 
It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 s= econds...betting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then&nb= sp;kinda just starts running as a continuation of the = starter being turned, instead of the engine actually "firing up".
 
I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex=  seals are nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I = am only getting about 60 psi on the rear rotor.  I am getting about 80= psi on the front rotor, which is what I expected.
 
Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor.  I am confidant th= at I got it together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so co= nfidant as the facts is the facts. The rear rotor is only 60 ps= i which IF I understand correctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the engine does not se= em as smooth when running as it has in the past).
 
I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks= but kept it at lower power.  Today, however I did run it up for sever= al seconds and was able to produce a steady 6300 RPM at 33.4 MAP.
 
I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set&= quot;, but I am not really thinking this holds water...or compression for t= hat matter.  I also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did= come up a bit, but the REALLY hard start remains.
 
I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what= I must have missed.  But since I am pretty sure I did it right before= WHAT, pray tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when= /if I open her up again????  Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a teardown.  FYI, the plugs lo= oked like I would have expected....brownish ashy with no oil build up. Also= , I am not having any current indication of coolant in the chambers (d= on't ask me how I know how to look for that tell tale sign [-(
 
Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or a= ttempts.
 
I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me.....
 
Chris Barber
Houston

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