X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm28-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.234] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with SMTP id 4840013 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Feb 2011 10:27:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.234; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.62] by nm28.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Feb 2011 15:27:10 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.23] by tm2.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Feb 2011 15:27:10 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Feb 2011 15:27:10 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 516408.58676.bm@omp1023.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 80612 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Feb 2011 15:27:10 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1297006030; bh=Rx+Y4kYwEHdv+FUx4yZnw+dHesdxSUgIN829I71szXo=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=3x801KfoI5L87jZYRnV9Y4dDonNJJyLJw2rwyl7DEoovY/pmmmY05CQzAJby/pWeSeF72m95mEscSJqVrF3i/NCzN/UEavqfDWvQZrB4Ro4Kg3VaRRGyByyiFxh+r0sISBIhAMEVJvARmqXnYPnmaKeARqluic1K2LaazUXrbS4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nE7/PldoUwYHVWNHoq7uHVw3wbyTPe58bsgiyYhsWYWDqp4RMnsJ/Iap3RliQZBSPXDgpu6C9KXd53VMYssesgEJCL0qpurEHJhocd7dwkMGEmBMz+G7K8ZATrfoJA1Lo43vPsaw6FYyauIGVmdyMa6E3qS4llFWQZlHxU9drNc=; Message-ID: <381322.76876.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Y8YNF.4VM1nyYZDNFPdA7huBJrrxP_HA7FE9S7VYezeghF. 7kWKRlOQ9UzGtbsmxzU_2E8NFk2xFyrYNo3bMVXrSC8Wwq8utLHb3xmd6IiL TgNyHZxDwX1b_uRVciw7LjjQa9haAbLioLd7rwTjgJzmmcOvRMjbf3FtXf_K JrC7xDFaos3XtYrd29Uknuq3jLfV._uf8Ux5N26itsEnDo95ixRbasZbzQdn eapGB0pYJmXpUcQV7X.X_bBvLWLCHGbwuJAEg0QS5PLCPrPCUQg.PHkJ04Bz 6HAmdzLtudQ-- Received: from [208.114.39.205] by web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 Feb 2011 07:27:10 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 07:27:10 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: EGT Values and recovery. To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-189636326-1297006030=:76876" --0-189636326-1297006030=:76876 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0Do I understand this correctly.................You = are saying that for =0Amaximum efficiency that we need to fly=0Awith full t= hrottle at=A0both climb and cruise and control=A0"EGT" with mixture =0Acont= rol (and /or ECU map settings)=0A.............Slightly richer than best pow= er for climb (to reduce EGT to less =0Athan 1650 F) then lean quickly =0A= =0A(to lean stumble) then slightly richer.............The bottom line that = being =0Athat trying to control "EGT" with the =0A=0Athrottle will not help= efficiency since it=A0increases pumping losses and only =0Aslightly reduce= s "EGT"..............=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)= =0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________= _____=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary motors i= n aircraft =0ASent: Sun, February 6, 2011 8:42= :16 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: EGT Values and recovery.=0A=0AIn a messag= e dated 2/6/2011 1:27:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, =0AALVentures@cox.net = writes:=0A=A0The EGT gage only works for loaded wide open throttle operatio= n. It is useless =0Aotherwise.=A0 Huh??=0A>=A0=0A>Perhaps you could further= clarify this point.=0A>=A0=0A>Al G =A0=0AThe EGT gage responds very quickl= y to changes in temperature. So, at 140 MPH on =0Aa long straightaway you m= ight hit a bump and the carb goes over rich just a =0Asmall part of a secon= d, and you will see that on the EGT gages. The needle moves =0Atoo fast to = keep track of, So, I installed a movie camera and a second gage dash =0Aboa= rd to record the actual readings rather than trust the driver to deliver su= ch =0Adata with adrenaline still running out of his ears.=0A=0AWe use the E= GT to be sure that we have not gone over 1650 degrees on either =0Arotor, a= nd that most of each lap was right on 1600 degrees. This is difficult =0Abe= cause the carb runs leaner in right turns than in lefts, and under hard =0A= braking the front rotor gets way over rich and the rear rotor gets way over= =0Alean. None of this matters because you use the 1650 as your maximum and= if it =0Aruns richer in one situation, no damage. =0A=0A=0AThe engine is h= appy at 1550 or 1575. It will be down a few HP but still no =0Aproblem. =0A= =0A=0ANo such fussing around is seen in injected engines and a more solid o= utcome =0Ashould be available.=0A=0ASuppose we have this pig dialed in and = are hammering along at 180 Knots, sitting =0Aright on 1600 degrees.=0AThe R= V whatever you took off with is no longer a factor but the oil temps are at= =0A200 and climbing.=A0You pull off just a hint of throttle, and as if by = magic the =0Aoil temp comes down to 190. Say the speed drops to 170 now.=0A= =0ANote that the EGT is far down as well. Fuel flow is down slightly. The E= GT is =0Ashowing BTUs per second. =0A=0AA very slight reduction in throttle= setting reduces air flow a considerable =0Aamount. The controller reduces = fuel=A0 flow to account for mass airflow. So =0Amixture stays the same. =0A= =0A=0ANow suppose the B controller is dialed in for best "lean of peak oper= ation" so, =0Awe accelerate to cruise speed well rich of peak EGT. Then swi= tch to "B". Still =0Awide open throttle No pumping losses from a throttle r= eduction. You get better =0Afuel burn because of the excess oxygen availabl= e. Less fuel is still burning as =0Ait crosses the EGT probes, so EGT comes= down, so less stress on the pieces and =0Alower oil temps which adds a bit= to power. =0A=0A=0AA piston airplane engine that can run lean of peak in e= very cruise situation can =0Amake TBO. Many die young from cracked heads an= d dropped exhaust valve heads. =0ASome engines do not have enough compressi= on to run well lean of peak EGT. Like =0Amost IO-470s. IO-550s love lean of= peak operation. =A0My friends Bonanza flys =0Afaster on less fuel with a 5= 50 than it did with the 470. Exceeds airframe red =0Aline while on steep cl= imb out still over airport property. Very low cylinder =0Ahead temps.=0A=0A= At partial throttle the EGT gages will be far down the scale and of little = =0Avalue. So, mixture data is not available. For a good mixture profile you= need a =0Aheated O2 sensor. One in each header would be nice=A0=0A=0ALynn = E. Hanover=A0 --0-189636326-1297006030=:76876 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Lynn,
=0A
      D= o I understand this correctly.................You are saying that for maxim= um efficiency that we need to fly
=0A
with full throttle at b= oth climb and cruise and control "EGT" with mixture control (and /or E= CU map settings)
=0A
.............Slightly richer than best power = for climb (to reduce EGT to less than 1650 F) then lean quickly
=0A(to lean stumble) then slightly richer.............The bottom line that = being that trying to control "EGT" with the
=0A
throttle will not= help efficiency since it increases pumping losses and only slightly r= educes "EGT"..............
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backp= late/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

= =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehan= over@aol.com>
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 8:42:16 AMSubject: [FlyRotary] Re: = EGT Values and recovery.

=0A
=0A
In a message dated 2/6/2011 1:27= :48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ALVentures@cox.net writes:
=0A=0A
=0A

<= FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial> The EGT gage only works for loaded wi= de open throttle operation. It is useless otherwise.  Huh??

=0A

 

=0A

Perhaps you could further clari= fy this point.

=0A

 

=0A

Al G  

=0A
=0A
The EGT gage responds very quickly to chang= es in temperature. So, at 140 MPH on a long straightaway you might hit a bu= mp and the carb goes over rich just a small part of a second, and you will = see that on the EGT gages. The needle moves too fast to keep track of, So, = I installed a movie camera and a second gage dash board to record the actua= l readings rather than trust the driver to deliver such data with adrenalin= e still running out of his ears.
=0A
 
=0A
We use th= e EGT to be sure that we have not gone over 1650 degrees on either rotor, a= nd that most of each lap was right on 1600 degrees. This is difficult becau= se the carb runs leaner in right turns than in lefts, and under hard brakin= g the front rotor gets way over rich and the rear rotor gets way over lean.= None of this matters because you use the 1650 as your maximum and if it ru= ns richer in one situation, no damage.
=0A
 
=0A
Th= e engine is happy at 1550 or 1575. It will be down a few HP but still no pr= oblem.
=0A
 
=0A
No such fussing around is seen in = injected engines and a more solid outcome should be available.
=0A 
=0A
Suppose we have this pig dialed in and are hammering a= long at 180 Knots, sitting right on 1600 degrees.
=0A
The RV whate= ver you took off with is no longer a factor but the oil temps are at 200 an= d climbing. You pull off just a hint of throttle, and as if by magic t= he oil temp comes down to 190. Say the speed drops to 170 now.
=0A =0A
Note that the EGT is far down as well. Fuel flow is do= wn slightly. The EGT is showing BTUs per second.
=0A
A very sligh= t reduction in throttle setting reduces air flow a considerable amount. The= controller reduces fuel  flow to account for mass airflow. So mixture= stays the same.
=0A
 
=0A
Now suppose the B contro= ller is dialed in for best "lean of peak operation" so, we accelerate to cr= uise speed well rich of peak EGT. Then switch to "B". Still wide open throt= tle No pumping losses from a throttle reduction. You get better fuel burn b= ecause of the excess oxygen available. Less fuel is still burning as it cro= sses the EGT probes, so EGT comes down, so less stress on the pieces and lo= wer oil temps which adds a bit to power.
=0A
 
=0A
= A piston airplane engine that can run lean of peak in every cruise situatio= n can make TBO. Many die young from cracked heads and dropped exhaust valve= heads. Some engines do not have enough compression to run well lean of pea= k EGT. Like most IO-470s. IO-550s love lean of peak operation.  My fri= ends Bonanza flys faster on less fuel with a 550 than it did with the 470. = Exceeds airframe red line while on steep climb out still over airport prope= rty. Very low cylinder head temps.
=0A
 
=0A
At part= ial throttle the EGT gages will be far down the scale and of little value. = So, mixture data is not available. For a good mixture profile you need a he= ated O2 sensor. One in each header would be nice 
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
Lynn E. Hanover 
=0A
 
=0A
 &= nbsp;
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