X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.93] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with SMTP id 4839401 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:37:27 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.93; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.64] by nm23.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 19:36:51 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.15] by tm4.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 19:36:51 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Feb 2011 19:36:51 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 96668.48022.bm@omp1015.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 60811 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Feb 2011 19:36:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1296934610; bh=IWWS9kebm63EEpM56PaK24qDo+0tppswF162MDfcWWA=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2Tu8SpBtLIwGUc9ZPKguKXeNFU5vTPEbA+ixD5LHCHwOZSR2zlNDWXbg5lEi11BMA7EoRCuQycpj3nLNUOSVjObHBhmFRtVKQWE3VauX/CY5NpQDZ5vAgizp5NF1DEmKqu7wepcZpb+PnRhG3p4qPF4CXOF/TenuzEMw6eGikIU= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rqGEF2t+y612NX0Oib8wxy1DvfgQW5f6Pt1SWfk8t47txTUIp56X5yFFGPtxRv6DesM43bZPJYdLAFixNJuG/ZOQInxHBB9vt0IiicHUSTmb+oPBmN1mtAMqUAzPlAhRvs8NM9r++kKdnQLgdgraIF2YDJceNyEOKDtd5THhDU4=; Message-ID: <847321.52998.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 3H2OKHsVM1koxWju.bW1oQ_pLulxsWrkFvTkWWqX0lK6nBl fXYNp.zwy4SmWwPtk4cXpV77WjuAjAXhD7qRv8fO360DAgureVBcLFan87Dm W5JFLf84u4TsI8YQ5F8mqYDkH2pVKSPpqJEfa7F_DzusXQNkon1y0lhJkSWh CCov3uszWoiaPkTxQCEUsyqhFUrC7jKlm8aM_Hiq29.vS8_Tg61L0SAckyc9 AQeeB_MowTw_VQ_YEDmUEEiLqndqProzCz1ps4LhYgP_3UKmPGFqQN7EroH0 Xc64rbXrD Received: from [208.114.45.24] by web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:36:50 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 11:36:50 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts? To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1421725803-1296934610=:52998" --0-1421725803-1296934610=:52998 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,=0A=A0=A0 High EGT on one rotor could possibly be a fuel problem (ie = injector , =0Aetc).............You might try=0Aswitching injectors with the= other rotor and see if the problem shifts to that =0Arotor............Is t= he high=0AEGT all the time or only at high power settings with all injector= s operating =0A(after staging) ?.......=0A=0A=A0 Does the "Mistral" ECU all= ow you to adjust the injector on-time to correct =0Aslight EGT imbalance=0A= between rotors like Tracy's EC2-3 ECU does ?.............=A0=0A=A0=0AKelly = Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/= EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Steve Thomas =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASe= nt: Sat, February 5, 2011 1:08:45 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral par= ts?=0A=0AHowdy everyone! =A0I'm sitting here lurking most of the time, but = admit that I =0Adon't read all the posts. =A0Here is an update on the situa= tion at Mistral. =A0The =0Acompany has closed its doors for now and is in t= he hands of a bankruptcy court. =0A=A0However, there is still a lot of inte= rest in the company and they are =0Acontinuing to seek out either additiona= l investors or a sale of the company with =0Aa view to resume. =A0The court= has given them an extension to work out any =0Apossible plans. =A0 =0A=0A= =0AAll of the employees that were there before it closed are gone, most hav= ing =0Asought out other opportunities. =A0So, there is really no one to con= tact at this =0Apoint. =A0Will there be a revival of Mistral? =A0All of us = who own their engines =0Asure hope so. =A0I hope to convince any new owners= /investors to get parts into the =0Afield, both whole engines and individua= l parts. =A0One aspect of my engine that I =0Areally appreciate is the hydr= aulic prop. =A0Works great. =A0=0A=0AIf anything that is for public consump= tion occurs, I will try to let everyone =0Aknow. =A0=0A=0AOn another subjec= t, I now have over 22 hours on my airplane. =A0I have been =0Afighting an o= il temperature problem from the outset. =A0I've realized that I have =0Aan = air intake that is too big and an air exit that is too small. =A0Right now,= I =0Acan manage the oil temps to the point that I can safely fly, but will= need to =0Amake some major cowl mods somewhere down the road. =A0I want to= get my 40 hours =0Aflown off so I can return to my home airport and work m= ore efficiently. =A0The =0Alarge intake scoop is also having a detrimental = effect on my top speed, both =0Afrom drag and the need to keep throttled ba= ck to watch the oil. =A0I can see that =0Amy cowl is building up a lot of p= ressure, so I've got to get that resolved =0Abefore I will really know what= this ship can do. =A0=0A=0AAlso, I have found a muffler that works great, = but it is still hanging out in =0Athe breeze under the airplane. =A0The muf= fler has cut the noise considerably. =A0I =0Agot it from Burns Stainless. = =A0it is one of their 2-stage mufflers. =A0But, I am =0Aalso fighting high = EGTs on my #1 rotor, which I attribute to poor cooling of the =0Aheader. = =A0So, I need to do some work there as well. =A0I'd love to get the whole = =0Abusiness under the cowl, so one of those tangential muffler solutions wi= th a =0Acool air blast tube is probably in my future. =A0The tangential pro= bably reduces =0Athe available power a little, but the undercarriage muffle= r adds drag. =A0=0A=0ABut, for now, I'm concentrating real hard on getting = my hours flown off. =A0=0A=0ABest Regards,=0A=0ASteve Thomas=0A=0A"When the= government fears the people=A0there is liberty; when the people fear =0Ath= e=A0government there is tyranny." --Thomas=A0Jefferson=0A__________________= _____________________________________=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Feb 5, 2011, a= t 10:30 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A=0AMarc,=0A>=A0=A0 I do not know "Mistral= 's" current status............I have their backplate =0A>and oil manifold..= ..........You=0A>might contact=A0 Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with a com= plete "Mistral" 13B =0A>engine........I do not=0A>know how close he monitor= s this forum...............=0A>=0A>Steve Thomas =0A>=0A>= =A0Steve Thomas =0A>=0A>=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA J= D2"=A0(Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRA= L"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A________________________________=0AFrom:=A0Marc Wiese =0A>To:=A0Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Se= nt:=A0Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM=0A>Subject:=A0[FlyRotary] Mistral p= arts?=0A>=0A>=0A>Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their bankrup= tcy/withdrawal from =0A>the market stopped all that completely? Did they se= ll to someone?=0A>Marc=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=0A>=0A________________________________= =0A=0A>From:=A0Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t]=A0On Behalf =0A>Of=A0Lehanover@aol.com=0A>Sent:=A0Friday, February 04, 2= 011 12:54 AM=0A>To:=A0Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subject:=A0[FlyRotary] R= e: Case bolts and torque readings=0A>=A0=0A>In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:0= 0:48 P.M. Eastern Standard =0A>Time,=A0Lehanover@aol.com=A0writes:=0A>Lynn,= =0A>>>=A0=A0 Forgive me=A0if I am a little dense but after your explanation= and all the =0A>>>mention of=A0 torque=0A>>>readings based on "Dry Threads= " then your statement to use "Antiseize" which =0A>>>method=0A>>>produces t= he most accurate and repeatable=A0torque readings ??............In my =0A>>= >hunt for bolts=0A>>>of the correct=A0thread length for the "Dynaocal" moun= ts to bolt to my "Mistral" =0A>>>backplate to=0A>>>my engine mount I obtain= ed a lot of info=A0regarding bolt torque from the "ARP" =0A>>>(well known= =0A>>>fastener company)........Their torque procedure=A0recommendation incl= udes the use =0A>>>of their=0A>>>own brand of thread lubricant.............= ..=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0Kelly Troyer=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2"=A0(Eventually)=0A>= =A0=0A>Well, any method of installation that is consistent bolt to bolt and= hole to =0A>hole can then produce repeatable torque readings within some a= cceptable range. =0A>All dry holes in one range, or all motor oiled holes o= r many builders like STP =0A>because it clings to stuff so well. So, there = is a big range in tension =0A>developed between say 25 pounds of torque on = a bolt with clean dry threads in a =0A>clean dry hole (Vapor degreased) and= another bolt lubricated with nearly any =0A>kind of oil or, oil like produ= ct.=0A>=A0=0A>Then all of the oil like products will produce a very much na= rrower band of =0A>tension outcomes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly a= nything works. So if the =0A>bolt is torqued up and you find some below tor= que, back each out in sequence one =0A>full turn to allow some lube to migr= ate onto the threads and torque up in one =0A>continuous motion. If you hav= e to stop the motion before the wrench clicks, then =0A>back up one full tu= rn and try again.=0A>=A0=0A>If it was not a single motion from the last tor= que step to the wrench click, =0A>then the bolt has=A0 not been torqued and= shame on you.=0A>=A0=0A>Torque is called out to control some other factor.= In this case how much =0A>pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam= stiffness and some torsional =0A>stiffness.=0A>=A0=0A>In very highly stres= sed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a tensile =0A>stress above t= he maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed Steel) makes all =0A>kinds = of bolts. The great=A0tension bolts=A0have a dimple on both ends. You stick= a =0A>special dial indicator jig on these bolts and you torque the bolt un= til it has =0A>stretched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts. It is= best to have a =0A>spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during resizin= g you rods. The clown who =0A>runs that machine generally torques rod bolts= to 35 pounds for everything.=0A>=A0=0A>You want you rods resized with bolt= s close to 50 pounds and stretched to =0A>.007"=A0That is if you actually w= ant round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil =0A>temps).=0A>=A0=0A>The torq= ue callouts for most bolts have nothing to do with the bolts at all. It =0A= >is to prevent your ham fisted brother in-law from jacking the threads out = of an =0A>aluminum casting. So bolts in aluminum for most applications can = be made of =0A>crap. Since not into their working range, there is no way to= keep them from =0A>backing out without some positive locking system. Not L= ocktite as it will glue =0A>the bolt in tight and require much heat to kill= it before removal, lest the =0A>threads come out with the bolt.=0AOr, Lock= tite just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for =0Asaf= ety wire.=0A=A0=0AThe aircraft bolts with thin heads and very short thread = runs, are shear bolts. =0AAlways used in double shear to avoid a bending lo= ad, and very lightly torqued as =0Athey are poor in tension. They have a ho= le through the threads for a safety pin =0Aor split cotter to keep the half= height castle nut from falling off.=A0=0A=A0=0AWent to Kermit Weeks Fantas= y of=A0 Flight museum today. Went on all of the tours. =0AWell worth a side= trip=A0up I-4 while at Sun&Fun.=0A=A0=0ALynn E. Hanover --0-1421725803-1296934610=:52998 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Steve,
=0A
   High EGT on one ro= tor could possibly be a fuel problem (ie injector , etc).............You mi= ght try
=0A
switching injectors with the other rotor and see if th= e problem shifts to that rotor............Is the high
=0A
EGT all = the time or only at high power settings with all injectors operating (after= staging) ?.......
=0A
 
=0A
  Does the "Mistra= l" ECU allow you to adjust the injector on-time to correct slight EGT imbal= ance
=0A
between rotors like Tracy's EC2-3 ECU does ?.............=  
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DE= LTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B R= OTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0AFrom: Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent= : Sat, February 5, 2011 1:08:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral parts?
Howdy everyone!  I'm sitting here lurking most of the time, but= admit that I don't read all the posts.  Here is an update on the situ= ation at Mistral.  The company has closed its doors for now and is in = the hands of a bankruptcy court.  However, there is still a lot of int= erest in the company and they are continuing to seek out either additional = investors or a sale of the company with a view to resume.  The court h= as given them an extension to work out any possible plans.   =0A
<= BR>
=0A
All of the employees that were there before it closed are = gone, most having sought out other opportunities.  So, there is really= no one to contact at this point.  Will there be a revival of Mistral?=  All of us who own their engines sure hope so.  I hope to convin= ce any new owners/investors to get parts into the field, both whole engines= and individual parts.  One aspect of my engine that I really apprecia= te is the hydraulic prop.  Works great.  
=0A

= =0A
If anything that is for public consumption occurs, I will try to le= t everyone know.  
=0A

=0A
On another subject, = I now have over 22 hours on my airplane.  I have been fighting an oil = temperature problem from the outset.  I've realized that I have an air= intake that is too big and an air exit that is too small.  Right now,= I can manage the oil temps to the point that I can safely fly, but will ne= ed to make some major cowl mods somewhere down the road.  I want to ge= t my 40 hours flown off so I can return to my home airport and work more ef= ficiently.  The large intake scoop is also having a detrimental effect= on my top speed, both from drag and the need to keep throttled back to wat= ch the oil.  I can see that my cowl is building up a lot of pressure, = so I've got to get that resolved before I will really know what this ship c= an do.  
=0A

=0A
Also, I have found a muffler t= hat works great, but it is still hanging out in the breeze under the airpla= ne.  The muffler has cut the noise considerably.  I got it from B= urns Stainless.  it is one of their 2-stage mufflers.  But, I am = also fighting high EGTs on my #1 rotor, which I attribute to poor cooling o= f the header.  So, I need to do some work there as well.  I'd lov= e to get the whole business under the cowl, so one of those tangential muff= ler solutions with a cool air blast tube is probably in my future.  Th= e tangential probably reduces the available power a little, but the underca= rriage muffler adds drag.  
=0A

=0A
But, for no= w, I'm concentrating real hard on getting my hours flown off.  
= =0A
=0A

Best Regards,

Steve Thomas

"W= hen the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people = fear the government there is tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson
_______________________________________________________




=0A
=0A
On Feb 5, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Kell= y Troyer wrote:

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Marc,
=0A
   I= do not know "Mistral's" current status............I have their backplate a= nd oil manifold............You
=0A
might con= tact  Steve Thomas (Glasair retract) with a complete "Mistral" 13B eng= ine........I do not
=0A
know how close he mo= nitors this forum...............
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>= ;
=0A
 
=0A
 Steve Thomas <steve@stevet.net>
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A<= P>Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Bac= kplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A<= HR SIZE=3D1>=0AFrom: Marc Wiese <cardmar= c@charter.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 12:16:23 PM
Subject:=  [FlyRotary] Mistral parts?

=0A
=0A
Will Mistral still sell subassemblies or has their bankru= ptcy/withdrawal from the market stopped all that completely? Did they sell = to someone?
=0A
Marc
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From:Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : Case bolts and torque readings
=0A

 =0A

=0A
In a message dated 2/3/2011 6:00:48 P.M. Easter= n Standard Time, Leh= anover@aol.com writes:<= /SPAN>
=0A
=0A=0A
=0A
Lynn,
=0A
=0A
   Forgive me if I am a = little dense but after your explanation and all the mention of  torque=
=0A
=0A
readings based on "Dry Threads= " then your statement to use "Antiseize" which method
=0A=
=0A
produces the most accurate and repeatable torqu= e readings ??............In my hunt for bolts
=0A
=0A
of the correct thread length for the "Dynaocal" mounts = to bolt to my "Mistral" backplate to
=0A
=0A
my engine mount I obtained a lot of info regarding bolt torque f= rom the "ARP" (well known
=0A
= =0A
= fast= ener company)........Their torque procedure recommendation includes th= e use of their
=0A
=0A
own brand of th= read lubricant...............
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A Kelly= Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /STRONG>
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
Well, any method of ins= tallation that is consistent bolt to bolt and hole to hole can then produce= repeatable torque readings within some acceptable range. All dry holes in = one range, or all motor oiled holes or many builders like STP because it cl= ings to stuff so well. So, there is a big range in tension developed betwee= n say 25 pounds of torque on a bolt with clean dry threads in a clean dry h= ole (Vapor degreased) and another bolt lubricated with nearly any kind of o= il or, oil like product.
=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
=0A
Then all of th= e oil like products will produce a very much narrower band of tension outco= mes. I like Nickel anti-seize, but nearly anything works. So if the bolt is= torqued up and you find some below torque, back each out in sequence one f= ull turn to allow some lube to migrate onto the threads and torque up in on= e continuous motion. If you have to stop the motion before the wrench click= s, then back up one full turn and try again.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
If it was not a single motion from the last torque step to the wrench c= lick, then the bolt has  not been torqued and shame on you.
=0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A
Torque is called out to control some other factor= . In this case how much pressure is on the stack, and that controls beam st= iffness and some torsional stiffness.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
In = very highly stressed bolts in tension, the bolt is torqued into a tensile s= tress above the maximum load expected. SPS (Standard Pressed Steel) makes a= ll kinds of bolts. The great tension bolts have a dimple on both = ends. You stick a special dial indicator jig on these bolts and you torque = the bolt until it has stretched a specific amount, like .007" for rod bolts= . It is best to have a spare set of SPS bolts that you use just during resi= zing you rods. The clown who runs that machine generally torques rod bolts = to 35 pounds for everything.
=0A
 

=0A
=0A
You want you= rods resized with bolts close to 50 pounds and stretched to .007" Tha= t is if you actually want round big ends. (Higher HP and lower oil temps).<= /SPAN>
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
The torque callouts for most bolts have n= othing to do with the bolts at all. It is to prevent your ham fisted brothe= r in-law from jacking the threads out of an aluminum casting. So bolts in a= luminum for most applications can be made of crap. Since not into their wor= king range, there is no way to keep them from backing out without some posi= tive locking system. Not Locktite as it will glue the bolt in tight and req= uire much heat to kill it before removal, lest the threads come out with th= e bolt.
=0A
=0AOr, Lockti= te just under the bolt head and washer. Or drill the bolt head for safety w= ire.
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
The aircraft bolts with thin heads a= nd very short thread runs, are shear bolts. Always used in double shear to = avoid a bending load, and very lightly torqued as they are poor in tension.= They have a hole through the threads for a safety pin or split cotter to k= eep the half height castle nut from falling off. 
= =0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
Went to Kermit Weeks Fantasy of  Flight museum today. = Went on all of the tours. Well worth a side trip up I-4 while at Sun&a= mp;Fun.
=0A
=0A

 <= /SPAN>

=0A
=0A
Lynn E. Hanover
=0A
=0A

 


= --0-1421725803-1296934610=:52998--