X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mta11.charter.net ([216.33.127.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4585467 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:59:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.80; envelope-from=cardmarc@charter.net Received: from imp09 ([10.20.200.9]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.09.02.04 201-2219-117-106-20090629) with ESMTP id <20101119205859.XPWX4123.mta11.charter.net@imp09> for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:58:59 -0500 Received: from HomeDesktop ([97.94.192.116]) by imp09 with smtp.charter.net id Z8yu1f00Y2X8M8p058yxXZ; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:58:58 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=PwqwoNGUeHwA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=JjDzQ4XOX_iVD1bUvZIA:9 a=oG0PPFQvvHwrO6DN6LQA:7 a=P-9MA20lvbRXiZnMawOT2L4GyswA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=85HwomARsXZ59qps:21 a=7-0WBANNVGb8bJI1:21 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=UbgtTUj0PbEbqdGszAsA:9 a=teUkDNHZ4spVZ3CxqsAA:7 a=8o5-a96iOTtkNfEq-jVO5tv9uA8A:4 a=lbtCsIymQruA1EcW:21 a=0bMGiCBfhW0wEdFe:21 From: "Marc Wiese" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] "COSMO" or 93-95 RX7 Auto Xmission Bell Housing Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:58:54 -0600 Message-ID: <011001cb882c$95afdc20$c10f9460$@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0111_01CB87FA.4B1EE200" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 thread-index: AQKL8Kr9uOC6PBHx4Fde1NLOcgrmI5H4dnVg Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01CB87FA.4B1EE200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Over half of the 93 to 95 rx7=92s sold in the USA were automatic transmissions. They come up all the time on the FD lists when people = scrap them out or try to convert them to track cars. I have Two AT=92s as = spares (my wife has a 94 rx7 with an auto transmission!). The AT version also uses = a special higher torque side mounted plate starter, which is a much better design than the standard transmission one. We ought to have a machinist = make up some of those longer shafts (I need at least one). There was a good = guy on other list that made the front flat MM adaptor plates that might do = it? Marc W. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 12:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] "COSMO" or 93-95 RX7 Auto Xmission Bell Housing =20 Mark, =20 Forgot to ask you something in the previous post.............Was a = auto transmission included with either of your 20B engines ?............My "Cosmo" 13B included = the transmission which I robbed the bell housing from to provide an extension for my "RD1C" like "Bulent" did for his "COSY" ( see attached photo ).............This required a longer RD1C = input shaft of which there are only two in existance that Tracy agreed make ( against his better judgement ) as these .were "One Offs" and pricey................I am trying to find another = bell housing from a "Cosmo" as a spare...............I do not think anyone ever has a use for the transmission and they end up as scrap..............The 93-95 RX7 auto xmission bell housing is the = same but very few RX7's of those years had a automatic xmission.............. =20 If you or anyone else of the group has or knows where I might find = one of these bell housings=20 please let me know............... =20 P.S.- The bell Housing bolts to the transmission for those not familar = with it........... =20 Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 10:19:03 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) Kelly,=20 =20 Well, I would usually settle for somewhere around 2300 rpm as it got too "ratty" below that RPM. I didn't mention it in my earlier post, but I = had borrowed Bob Darrah's EC-2 to run while mine was being re-worked . = Bob's EC-2 didn't have the injector snubbers, and it had not been upgraded = since 2006. Tracy was surprised that it ran as well as it did. However, = while not finely tuned, it did run better than my unit. =20 =20 Yes, I suppose I'll have to record a ground run, just for the fun of it, = and to help us through the long winter months ahead. Stay tuned (no pun intended). =20 =20 Mark On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Mark, What was your idle MP before the EC2 update ?...............Do you = have any video with=20 sounds of that "Leg Chilling" 20B at idle ?.................I could use = a thrill !!.................<:) =20 =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Ed Anderson =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) =20 7000 rpm static - WoW! sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to = absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT! =20 Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison of = port timing information from Paul Yaw You can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater = than the turbo 13B. So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since average amount of time the PP intake is open longer to the atmosphere for the = same RPM as a turbo 13B, that the intake manifold pressure would be higher = for the same rpm. So what you are seeing just may well be "normal" for a PP port. =20 But then I don't own and have no experience with a PP. =20 Ed =20 =20 =20 Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B IO 32=B0 ATDC IC 50=B0 ABDC EO 71=B0 BBDC EC 48=B0 ATDC=20 Mazda Factory Peripheral Port IO 86=B0 BTDC IC 75=B0 ABDC EO 73=B0 BBDC EC 65=B0 ATDC=20 =20 =20 A =20 ASThis site is meant to give information =20 From: Mark Steitle =20 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) =20 OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. =20 =20 As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert = from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited = success, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out. I = had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. =20 =20 About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to = say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. I = sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the = latest version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it would perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it started on = the third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not = at "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the instructions in the = manual, first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# injectors. Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. = A little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was = idling down around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send = chills up your leg. ;-0 =20 =20 Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do = 7000 rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my engine = all over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time = to fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. There was a = 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smooth. I = flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At 3500 msl I headed east = and did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings. Up and down the scale, fine-tuning each address. She was running like a fine Swiss = watch, or to put it another way, like a rotary should. =20 =20 Issues: =20 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP = at idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check to = make sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under = these circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am using = a slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports. So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in = the rotor housings (no oil injection pump). Could this account for the = unusual MAP readings? I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the = atmosphere, I can't measure MAP from there. I think there are others that use this = scheme with success. =20 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop = rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the higher rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will gradually start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop. Or, = maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through = the air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing that you have another = 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it. =20 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is = a new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll try adjusting the regulator (again). =20 =20 All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort = out though. =20 =20 Mark S. Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B Lockhart, TX =20 =20 =20 On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make = sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. David. ----- Original Message ----- From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to read = about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the list! = Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching football all day = like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) =20 =20 Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment! = Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the list! :) =20 =20 Doug =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01CB87FA.4B1EE200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kelly,

Over half of the 93 to 95 rx7’s sold in the USA were automatic = transmissions. They come up all the time on the FD lists when people = scrap them out or try to convert them to track cars. I have Two = AT’s as spares (my wife has a 94 rx7 with an auto transmission!). = The AT version also uses a special higher torque side mounted plate = starter, which is a much better design than the standard transmission = one. We ought to have a machinist make up some of those longer shafts (I = need at least one). There was a good guy on other list that made the = front flat MM adaptor plates that might do it?

Marc W.

 

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 = 12:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] "COSMO" or 93-95 RX7 Auto Xmission Bell = Housing

 

Mark,

 

    Forgot to = ask you something in the previous post.............Was a auto = transmission included
 with either of your 20B engines = ?............My "Cosmo" 13B included the = transmission which I

 robbed the bell housing = from to provide an extension for my "RD1C" like = "Bulent" did for his

 "COSY" ( see = attached photo ).............This required a longer RD1C input shaft of = which there

 are only two in = existance that Tracy agreed make ( against his better judgement ) as = these

.were "One Offs" = and pricey................I am trying to find another bell housing from = a "Cosmo"

 as a = spare...............I do not think anyone ever has a use for the = transmission and they end up

 as = scrap..............The 93-95 RX7 auto xmission bell housing is = the same but very few RX7's

 of those years had a = automatic xmission..............

 

   If  you or = anyone else of the group has or knows where I might find one of these = bell housings

 please let me = know...............

 

 P.S.- The bell Housing = bolts to the transmission for those not familar with = it...........

 

 Thanks,

    <= /o:p>

Kelly = Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50= Turbo

 

 

From:= = Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, = November 15, 2010 10:19:03 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are = those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Kelly,

 

Well, I would usually settle for = somewhere around 2300 rpm as it got too "ratty" = below that RPM.  I didn't mention it in my earlier post, but I = had borrowed Bob Darrah's EC-2 to run while mine was being re-worked = .  Bob's EC-2 didn't have the injector snubbers, and it had not = been upgraded since 2006.  Tracy was surprised that it ran as well = as it did.  However, while not finely tuned, it did run better than = my unit. 

 

Yes, I suppose I'll have to record a ground run, = just for the fun of it, and to help us through the long winter months = ahead.  Stay tuned (no pun intended).  =

 

Mark

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> = wrote:

Mark,

    What was = your idle MP before the EC2 update ?...............Do you have = any video with

sounds of that = "Leg Chilling" 20B at idle ?.................I could = use a thrill = !!.................<:)

 

 

Kelly = Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50= Turbo

 

 

From:= = Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> =


To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Sent:= = Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 AM


Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David)

 

7000 rpm static - WoW!  = sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to absorb the power - tough = situation to be in - NOT!

 

Regarding your 17" = manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison  of port timing = information from Paul Yaw

You = can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater than = the turbo 13B.  So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since = average amount of time  the PP intake is open longer to the = atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B,  that the intake = manifold pressure would be higher for the same rpm.  So what you = are seeing just may well be "normal" for a PP = port.

 

But = then I don't own and have no experience with a = PP.

 

Ed

=

 

  =

 

Second and Third = Generation Turbo 13B

IO 32=B0 = ATDC
IC 50=B0 ABDC
EO 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC

Mazda Factory = Peripheral Port

IO 86=B0 = BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 BBDC
EC 65=B0 ATDC

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

A=

 <= /o:p>

A= SThis site is meant to give = information

 <= /o:p>

From:= = Mark = Steitle

Sent:= = Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David)

 

OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update.  =

 

As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting = my 20B to run as it should.  Problems started about 3 years back = when I decided to convert from the stock CAS to the Renesis style = CAS.  While I did have limited success, it was very sensitive to = alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and possibly some other issues = that I am not smart enough to figure out.  I had trouble getting it = to run above 5800 rpm. 

 

About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and = I called Tracy to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the = original configuration.  I sent it back to Tracy who made the = mod and upgraded the software to the latest version.  I got it = back on Friday and was anxious to see how it would perform.  I = installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday.  Yea, it started = on the third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob = was not at "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth.  = Following the instructions in the manual, first thing I did was = to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# = injectors.  Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map = ranges.  A little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode = 1 & 9 and it was idling down around 1500 rpm.  = (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.)  The exhaust = tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chills = up your leg.  ;-0 

 

Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to = where it would almost do 7000 rpm static.  (Keep in mind = that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and this was Sunday = morning.  You could probably hear me tuning my engine all over = town.)  Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time = to fly.  It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could = be.  There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, = but the air was silky smooth.  I flew a couple of patterns, = climbing as I circled.  At 3500 msl I headed east and did some = tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings.  Up and down the = scale, fine-tuning each address.  She was running like a = fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way, like a rotary = should.  

 

Issues: 

1)  MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a = vacuum leak as the MAP at idle is reading 17.4".  Next = trip to the airport I will double-check to make sure that I got = both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for leaks = elsewhere.  It is amazing that it idles as well as it does = under these circumstances.  Note that rather than using a = throttle body, I am using a slide-throttle which is = located just a few inches from the intake ports.  So, the = vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in the = rotor housings (no oil injection pump).  Could = this account for the unusual MAP readings?  I do have a = plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere, I = can't measure MAP from there.  I think there are others that = use this scheme with success. 

2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at = around 2000-2100 prop rpm.  I can set the = prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but = the higher rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds.  The = speed will gradually start bleeding off.  Not sure why = this is happening.  Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, = or just a characteristic of the M/T prop.  Or, maybe the = engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through the = air any faster.  It is annoying though, knowing that you have = another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it.

 

3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main = alternator is low.  This is a new alternator which has been = converted to external regulator.  I'll try adjusting the regulator = (again). 

 

All in all, a very successful weekend.  As usual, = more issues to sort out though. 

 

Mark S.

Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B

Lockhart, TX

 

 


 

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net> = wrote:

Rodger that Doug, = I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure all ducks in a = row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wine = marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know.  = David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, = November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 = Stainless staples...(from David)<= o:p>

N= a...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!  I'm still = hoping to read about some flying exploits from this weekend, = from someone on the list!  Surely all our aviators = weren't just sitting around watching football all day like us gimpy = / DNIF guys!!!!   :)   =

&= nbsp;

M= ucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection = prior to first flight!  Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the = moment!  Then post some pictures / data of the big event on = the list!  = :)    

&= nbsp;

D= oug

 

 

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