X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4579827 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:17:53 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) by FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) with mapi; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:16:42 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(fromDavid) Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(fromDavid) Thread-Index: AQHLhOLFW2KdJXKNokeYJIRLgNc4BpNyw4LQ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:16:40 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3032761760@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3032761760FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3032761760FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before my engine decided to stop running at all (don't even ask right now a= s I may just throw the damned thing in the Gulf), I would loose power at th= e top end. It would hit a high RPM around 6300 or so and then drop to arou= nd 5900. It did this before the turbo was added and continued afterwards (= but with a bit less high end rpm). I am using the Mistral intake thus my first thought is that it is designed = well. Perhaps a pressure leak somewhere, but since I have been down that r= oad before and feel I have addressed it, it would not be my first pursuit..= .but, something else to be aware of. Now, back to the hangar and try to figure out why I went to hard start to n= o start (following my noise issue of a few weeks ago). I am becoming disg= runtled....but still trying to work the problem...so far. Chris Barber Houston ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:32 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(fromDavid) Bill, I take it that you're suggesting I spray WD-40 up behind the panel while so= meone runs the engine and holds the brakes. Other than making a bit of a m= ess, that should find the leak, if there is one. I doubt I can use this te= chnique on the engine side (with engine running). Most would end up on the= windscreen, and/or in my face. Besides, spinning props make me very nervo= us. On the speed issue, I can get it up to speed (around 200 mph) running WOT a= t a lower prop setting (1900 - 2100), then dial the prop rpm up to say 2200= - 2250 and you can feel it start slowing down even though the engine rpm h= as increased with the higher prop setting. Loss of speed is confirmed by t= he EM-2. Bobby Hughes states that he has experienced the same thing with h= is super-charged Renesis with constant speed M/T prop. So, I'm wondering i= f it may be something in the design of the M/T prop. Since they were desig= ned for use with Lycoming engines, it seems they ought to perform well up t= o 2750-2800 rpm. So, it may be something else causing the problem. Mark On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Bill Bradburry > wrote: Hi Mark, You can check for vacuum leaks by squirting starting fluid or carb cleaner = around the intake system while someone is holding the brakes. What is the airspeed when you hit the wall? You say the speed will gradual= ly start to bleed off. Do you mean that the speed initially increases by s= ome value, then falls back? How much? Does the engine rpm maintain during= this phase? Are you at WOT and just using the prop to control the engine = speed at this time? Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it sh= ould. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert from t= he stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited success, i= t was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and possib= ly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out. I had troub= le getting it to run above 5800 rpm. About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to sa= y that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. I se= nt it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the lates= t version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it would per= form. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it started on the t= hird prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at "1= 2 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the instructions in the manual, = first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# inje= ctors. Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. A litt= le adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idling down= around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The exhaust= tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chills up your= leg. ;-0 Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do 7000= rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and t= his was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my engine all ov= er town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time to f= ly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. There was a 5000' c= eiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smooth. I flew= a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At 3500 msl I headed east an= d did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings. Up and down the s= cale, fine-tuning each address. She was running like a fine Swiss watch, o= r to put it another way, like a rotary should. Issues: 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP at i= dle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check to make= sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for l= eaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under these= circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am using a = slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports. S= o, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in the = rotor housings (no oil injection pump). Could this account for the unusual= MAP readings? I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere,= I can't measure MAP from there. I think there are others that use this sc= heme with success. 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop rpm. = I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the higher rpm d= oesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will gradually start bleedi= ng off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be tuning, or intake/exhaus= t design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop. Or, maybe the engine i= sn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through the air any fast= er. It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap b= ut can't use it. 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is a n= ew alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll try adj= usting the regulator (again). All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort out t= hough. Mark S. Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B Lockhart, TX On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, > wrote: Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure = all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wi= ne marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. David. ----- Original Message ----- From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to read about= some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the list! Surely = all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching football all day like= us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection pri= or to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment! Then p= ost some pictures / data of the big event on the list! :) Doug --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3032761760FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Before my engine decided to stop running at all (don't even ask right = now as I may just throw the damned thing in the Gulf), I would loose power = at the top end.  It would hit a high RPM around 6300 or so and then dr= op to around 5900.  It did this before the turbo was added and continued afterwards (but with a bit l= ess high end rpm).
 
I am using the Mistral intake thus my first thought is that it is desi= gned well.  Perhaps a pressure leak somewhere, but since I have been d= own that road before and feel I have addressed it, it would not be my first= pursuit...but, something else to be aware of.
 
Now, back to the hangar and try to figure out why I went to hard start= to no start (following my noise issue of  a few weeks ago).  I a= m becoming disgruntled....but still trying to work the problem...so far.
 
Chris Barber
Houston
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Mark Steitle [msteitle@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:32 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from= David)

Bill,
 
I take it that you're suggesting I spray WD-40 up behind the panel whi= le someone runs the engine and holds the brakes.  Other than making a = bit of a mess, that should find the leak, if there is one.  I doubt I = can use this technique on the engine side (with engine running).  Most would end up on the windscreen, and/or i= n my face.  Besides, spinning props make me very nervous. 
 
On the speed issue, I can get it up to speed (around 200 mph) running = WOT at a lower prop setting (1900 - 2100), then dial the prop rpm up to say= 2200 - 2250 and you can feel it start slowing down even though t= he engine rpm has increased with the higher prop setting.  Loss of speed is confirmed by the EM-2. = ; Bobby Hughes states that he has experienced the same thing with = ;his super-charged Renesis with constant speed M/T prop.  So= , I'm wondering if it may be something in the design of the M/T prop.&= nbsp; Since they were designed for use with Lycoming engines, it seems they ought to&n= bsp;perform well up to 2750-2800 rpm.  So, it may be something el= se causing the problem. 
 
Mark

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Bill Bradburry= <bbradburr= y@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Hi Mark,=

&= nbsp;

You can check f= or vacuum leaks by squirting starting fluid or carb cleaner around the inta= ke system while someone is holding the brakes.

&= nbsp;

What is the air= speed when you hit the wall?  You say the speed will gradually start t= o bleed off.  Do you mean that the speed initially increases by some value, then falls back?  How much?  Does the e= ngine rpm maintain during this phase?  Are you at WOT and just using t= he prop to control the engine speed at this time?

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, November 15, = 2010 9:09 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: He= y are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

 

OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. 

 

As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting = my 20B to run as it should.  Problems started about 3 years back when = I decided to convert from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.  While I did have limited success, it was very sen= sitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and possibly some other = issues that I am not smart enough to figure out.  I had trouble gettin= g it to run above 5800 rpm. 

 

About a month ago I decided that enough was enough an= d I called Tracy to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the origina= l configuration.  I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the latest version. &nb= sp;I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it would perform.&nbs= p; I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday.  Yea, it start= ed on the third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth.  Fol= lowing the instructions in the manual, first thing I did was to adjust=  Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# injectors.  Now= it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges.  A little adj= usting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idli= ng down around 1500 rpm.  (Keep in mind that this is a p-por= t motor.)  The exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it&= nbsp;is enough to send chills up your leg.  ;-0 

 

Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to wh= ere it would almost do 7000 rpm static.  (Keep in mind that&= nbsp;Lockhart, TX is a small country town and this was Sunday morning. = ; You could probably hear me tuning my engine all over town.)  Confiden= t that it would stay running, I decided it was time to fly.  It c= limbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be.  There was a 5000' = ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smooth.  I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled.  At= 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP se= ttings.  Up and down the scale, fine-tuning each address.  S= he was running like a fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way, like a rotary should.  

 

Issues: 

1)  MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a = vacuum leak as the MAP at idle is reading 17.4".  Next trip = to the airport I will double-check to make sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for leaks elsewhere.&= nbsp; It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under these circu= mstances.  Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am= using a slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports.  So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unu= sed oil injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil injection pump). = ; Could this account for the unusual MAP readings?  I d= o have a plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere, I can't = measure MAP from there.  I think there are others that use this scheme with s= uccess. 

2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at a= round 2000-2100 prop rpm.  I can set the prop high= er and get a higher engine rpm, but the higher rpm doesn't t= ranslate into higher speeds.  The speed will gradually start bleeding off= .  Not sure why this is happening.  Could be tuning, or intake/ex= haust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop.  Or,= maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe throu= gh the air any faster.  It is annoying though, knowing that you have ano= ther 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it.

 

3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alte= rnator is low.  This is a new alternator which has been converted to e= xternal regulator.  I'll try adjusting the regulator (again). 

 

All in all, a very successful weekend.  As usual= , more issues to sort out though. 

 

Mark S.

Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B

Lockhart, TX

 

 


 

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net>= wrote:

Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork ag= ain to make sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wine marinade is the secret= to good tender duck you know.  David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.co= m
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be= 321...don't you think David?!  I'm still hoping to read abo= ut some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the list!  Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting aro= und watching football all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!!  &nbs= p;:)  

 

Mucho congrat= s on getting your project to the point of final inspection prior to first f= light!  Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment!  Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the = list!  :)    

 

Doug

 


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