X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4579802 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:03:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.50; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wwd20 with SMTP id 20so217015wwd.7 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:02:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=YONksb8Bqfc0AP7O/whT55WQZi+4TuJ7Iv08avEQEFo=; b=H9KILAoMs/5j5co3/QQ64K3kC7Wo/Tr9RH56o41K4wPvuQzJRd2hVTDPFyCHCZkLJY C1jfp+2pbpdPTvs+9LVnUH12IZJQ/+md98Bmh0ojWf9XT+vZVHlc3cf72vFtcAXrylzc GKIH+K81SZxntR54Y/FiqomrVnGu+cEh06ns8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=G1M98qfuEGqnDdccBKREwBg49yoXDvSLo7V9FgU7dUMx8uCmA/f04pukIc9qaeBbQU 9JHhChecaJJna03rmA/ilKDG5zKSAuuoIL0HhKmcjb1r+czUQCLoXg8p7UyotW99mwSx akjwZVJ/7t51XelaRJI8vRqfBiFdz33Qo9d+g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.153.199 with SMTP id l7mr6346514wbw.133.1289840560765; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:02:40 -0800 (PST) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.21.145 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:02:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:02:40 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f-9NF8OTUDoe1wZuNzwzGQsfaAE Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016367fae2370f9e104951a6898 --0016367fae2370f9e104951a6898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Ed. Between that and the intake chamber point where you get your manifold pressure, it could be normal. This was the one of the reason= s I had to add the RPM map table to the EC2/3. When the engine is below abou= t 2500 RPM, the EC2/3 uses the RPM table between adr. 0 and 31 to adjust the mixture. Some engine configurations will idle at the same MP as they could cruise at. I frequently cruise around at 17" Hg when I'm just sight seeing but the rpm is up around 4100 so it is no longer in the same MAP table.. Note that you might have to adjust the RPM table MP threshold (Mode 7 with Cold Start ON) for extreme examples like this because I think the default threshold is about 13.5" Hg. The EC2/3 will switch to the MP MAP table above this threshold even if the RPM is below the RPM threshold. Tracy On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Ed Anderson wro= te: > 7000 rpm static - WoW! sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to > absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT! > > Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison of > port timing information from Paul Yaw > You can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater th= an > the turbo 13B. So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since average > amount of time the PP intake is open longer to the atmosphere for the sa= me > RPM as a turbo 13B, that the intake manifold pressure would be higher fo= r > the same rpm. So what you are seeing just may well be "normal" for a PP > port. > > But then I don't own and have no experience with a PP. > > Ed > > > > > Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B > > IO 32=B0 ATDC > IC 50=B0 ABDC > EO 71=B0 BBDC > EC 48=B0 ATDC Mazda Factory Peripheral Port > > IO 86=B0 BTDC > IC 75=B0 ABDC > EO 73=B0 BBDC > EC 65=B0 ATDC > > > > > > A > > > > ASThis site is meant to give information > > *From:* Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from > David) > > OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. > > As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it > should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert fr= om > the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited success= , > it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and > possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out. I h= ad > trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. > > About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to > say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. = I > sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the > latest version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it wo= uld > perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it started on = the > third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at > "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the instructions in the manu= al, > first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# > injectors. Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. = A > little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idlin= g > down around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The > exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chill= s > up your leg. ;-0 > > Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do 70= 00 > rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and > this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my engine all > over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time = to > fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. There was a 5000= ' > ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smooth. I f= lew > a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At 3500 msl I headed east a= nd > did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings. Up and down the > scale, fine-tuning each address. She was running like a fine Swiss watch= , > or to put it another way, like a rotary should. > > Issues: > 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP at > idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check to m= ake > sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for > leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under th= ese > circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am using a > slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports. > So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in t= he > rotor housings (no oil injection pump). Could this account for the unusu= al > MAP readings? I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere= , I > can't measure MAP from there. I think there are others that use this sch= eme > with success. > 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop > rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the high= er > rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will gradually > start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be tuning, or > intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop. Or, may= be > the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through th= e > air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 150= 0 > rpm on tap but can't use it. > > 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is a > new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll try > adjusting the regulator (again). > > All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort ou= t > though. > > Mark S. > Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B > Lockhart, TX > > > > > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: > >> Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make >> sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a swee= t >> red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. David. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) >> >> Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to >> read about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the >> list! Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching foot= ball >> all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) >> >> Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection >> prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment! >> Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the list! :) >> >> Doug >> > > --0016367fae2370f9e104951a6898 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Ed.=A0 Between that and the intake chamber point where you get= your manifold pressure, it could be normal.=A0 This was the one of the rea= sons I had to add the RPM map table to the EC2/3.=A0 When the engine is bel= ow about 2500 RPM, the EC2/3 uses the RPM table between adr. 0 and 31 to ad= just the mixture.=A0 Some engine configurations will idle at the same MP as= they could cruise at.=A0 I frequently cruise around at 17" Hg when I&= #39;m just sight seeing but the rpm is up around 4100 so it is no longer in= the same MAP table..

Note that you might have to adjust the RPM table MP threshold (Mode 7 w= ith Cold Start ON) for extreme examples like this because I think the defau= lt threshold is about 13.5" Hg.=A0=A0=A0 =A0 The EC2/3 will switch to = the MP MAP table above this threshold even if the RPM is below the RPM thre= shold.

Tracy

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:39 A= M, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
7000 rpm static - WoW!=A0 sounds like not enough = pitch=20 in the prop to absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT!
=A0
Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle= - here is a=20 comparison=A0 of port timing information from Paul Yaw
You can see that the total open time of the PP is= =20 considerable greater than the turbo 13B.=A0 So for a given rpm, I would=20 conclude that since average amount of time =A0the PP intake is open longer = to=20 the atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B, =A0that the intake manifold= =20 pressure would be higher for the same rpm.=A0 So what you are seeing just m= ay=20 well be "normal" for a PP port.
=A0
But then I don't own and have no experience w= ith a=20 PP.
=A0
Ed
=A0
=A0=20

=A0

Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B

IO 32=B0 ATDC
IC=20 50=B0 ABDC
EO 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC <= font color=3D"#7f00ff" face=3D"Tahoma">

Mazda Factory Peripheral Port

IO 86=B0 BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 BBDC<= br>EC 65=B0 ATDC=20

=A0

=A0

A

=A0

ASThis site is meant to give inf= ormation


Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...= (from=20 David)

OK, Doug,=A0I'll post my weekend update.=A0
=A0
As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as = it=20 should.=A0 Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert fr= om=20 the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.=A0 While I did have limited success= ,=20 it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and possi= bly=20 some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out.=A0 I had troubl= e=20 getting it to run above 5800 rpm.=A0
=A0
About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy = to=20 say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original=20 configuration.=A0=A0I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded= =20 the software to the latest version.=A0=A0I got it back on Friday and was=20 anxious to see how it would perform.=A0 I installed the upgraded=A0EC-2 on= =20 Saturday.=A0=A0Yea, it started on the third prop blade and ran quite well,= =20 although the Mixture knob was not at "12=A0O'clock", it ran v= ery=20 smooth.=A0 Following the instructions in the manual, first thing I did was= =20 to=A0adjust=A0Mode 3=A0to=A0compensate for my larger 60#=20 injectors.=A0 Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map=20 ranges.=A0 A little adjusting of the lower addresses using=A0Mode=20 1=A0& 9 and=A0it was idling down=A0around 1500 rpm.=A0 (Keep in=20 mind that this is a=A0p-port motor.)=A0=A0The exhaust tone at low idle=20 is hard to describe...it=A0is enough to send chills up your leg.=A0=20 ;-0=A0
=A0
Sunday, after a=A0some more tuning, I got it to where it=20 would=A0almost do=A07000 rpm static.=A0 (Keep in mind=20 that=A0Lockhart, TX is a small country town and this was Sunday=20 morning.=A0 You could probably hear me tuning my engine all over town.)=A0= =20 Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time to=20 fly.=A0=A0It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could=20 be.=A0=A0There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, b= ut the=20 air=A0was silky smooth.=A0 I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I=20 circled.=A0 At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at=20 different MAP settings.=A0 Up and down the scale,=A0fine-tuning each=20 address.=A0 She was running like=A0a fine Swiss watch, or to put it=20 another way, like a rotary should.=A0=A0
=A0
Issues:=A0
1)=A0 MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as=20 the=A0MAP at idle is reading 17.4".=A0 Next trip to the airport I will= =20 double-check to make sure that=A0I got both lines plugged into the EC-2=20 properly,=A0and check for leaks elsewhere.=A0 It is amazing that=20 it=A0idles as well as it does under these circumstances.=A0=A0Note that=20 rather than using a throttle body,=A0I am using a slide-throttle which is= =20 located=A0just a few inches from the intake ports.=A0 So,=A0the vacuum=20 lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in the rotor housings= (no=20 oil injection pump).=A0=A0Could this=A0account for the=A0unusual MAP=20 readings?=A0 I do have a plenum, but since=A0it is open to the atmosphere,= =20 I can't=A0measure MAP from there.=A0 I think there are others that use= =20 this scheme with success.=A0
2)=A0Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop= =20 rpm.=A0=A0I can=A0set=A0the prop=A0higher and=A0get=20 a=A0higher engine rpm, but the=A0higher rpm doesn't translate into high= er=20 speeds.=A0 The speed=A0will gradually start=A0bleeding off.=A0 Not=20 sure why this is happening.=A0 Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design,= =20 or=A0just a characteristic of the M/T prop.=A0=A0Or, maybe the engine=20 isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through the air any= =20 faster.=A0 It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on= =20 tap but can't use it.
=A0
3) Alternator - the voltage reading on=A0main alternator is low.=A0=20 This is a new alternator which has been converted to external regulator.=A0= =20 I'll try adjusting the regulator (again).=A0
=A0
All in all, a very successful weekend.=A0 As usual, more=A0issues to= =20 sort out though.=A0
=A0
Mark S.
Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B
Lockhart, TX
=A0
=A0

=A0
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaw= ay1@comcast.net>=20 wrote:
= Rodger that=20 Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure all ducks = in a=20 row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wine marina= de is=20 the secret to good tender duck you know.=A0 David.
----- Original=20 Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <<= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, November=20 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless= =20 staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!=A0 I'm still=20 hoping=A0to read=A0about some flying exploits from this weekend, from=20 someone on the list!=A0=A0Surely all our aviators weren't=A0just=20 sitting around watching football all day like us gimpy / DNIF=20 guys!!!!=A0=A0=A0:)=A0=A0
=A0
Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspect= ion=20 prior to first flight!=A0 Take your time, be safe, and enjoy=A0the=20 moment!=A0 Then=A0post some pictures / data of the big event on the=20 list!=A0 :)=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0
Doug


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