X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4579764 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:33:25 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by eyf18 with SMTP id 18so2543548eyf.25 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:32:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+sEupAzNIkAtxiAN/7dxzrQtx6XBH6V8cPibcJj5+KY=; b=EtJgNVMOqyWbzT5g7OcSgFltWX76LrzuqgZXIK0GWC8U8zTnNa2qoDNNXIS4dtt0bm F4u18tkBGSMBmYNPBBkZR/qHKnc4T1fhlUxpBOEBXceg/sVoHJxd9FS90VciC4+zVwbH i9a76/tdUNCEdGLCmEwK5L2FC72cSUpByeh6w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=p0+MhYnDZE7lvScrc2b+8DfHCSKeZxAW17SbUDSC7Z82+kGQDYXi1E27eiH52PI3W2 W1jrFi10N5oVxfo+Y1DcUbRg7s2yRt455/5inAKq/ugrh34N4rpcwmEg15+JoxPEXxJP 6MYpqN3wJq5VpS0D2jpgSyaFcQBAF2H/X0nso= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.28.18 with SMTP id k18mr539341ebc.25.1289838769202; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.36.17 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:32:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:32:49 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1e12ca7e7c5049519fdf2 --000e0cd1e12ca7e7c5049519fdf2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Bill, I take it that you're suggesting I spray WD-40 up behind the panel while someone runs the engine and holds the brakes. Other than making a bit of a mess, that should find the leak, if there is one. I doubt I can use this technique on the engine side (with engine running). Most would end up on the windscreen, and/or in my face. Besides, spinning props make me very nervous. On the speed issue, I can get it up to speed (around 200 mph) running WOT at a lower prop setting (1900 - 2100), then dial the prop rpm up to say 2200 - 2250 and you can feel it start slowing down even though the engine rpm has increased with the higher prop setting. Loss of speed is confirmed by the EM-2. Bobby Hughes states that he has experienced the same thing with his super-charged Renesis with constant speed M/T prop. So, I'm wondering if it may be something in the design of the M/T prop. Since they were designed for use with Lycoming engines, it seems they ought to perform well up to 2750-2800 rpm. So, it may be something else causing the problem. Mark On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > Hi Mark, > > > > You can check for vacuum leaks by squirting starting fluid or carb cleaner > around the intake system while someone is holding the brakes. > > > > What is the airspeed when you hit the wall? You say the speed will > gradually start to bleed off. Do you mean that the speed initially > increases by some value, then falls back? How much? Does the engine rpm > maintain during this phase? Are you at WOT and just using the prop to > control the engine speed at this time? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from > David) > > > > OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. > > > > As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it > should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert from > the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited success, > it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and > possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out. I had > trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. > > > > About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to > say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. I > sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the > latest version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it would > perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it started on the > third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at > "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the instructions in the manual, > first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# > injectors. Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. A > little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idling > down around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The > exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chills > up your leg. ;-0 > > > > Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do 7000 > rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and > this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my engine all > over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time to > fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. There was a 5000' > ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smooth. I flew > a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At 3500 msl I headed east and > did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings. Up and down the > scale, fine-tuning each address. She was running like a fine Swiss watch, > or to put it another way, like a rotary should. > > > > Issues: > > 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP at > idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check to make > sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for > leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under these > circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am using a > slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports. > So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in the > rotor housings (no oil injection pump). Could this account for the unusual > MAP readings? I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere, I > can't measure MAP from there. I think there are others that use this scheme > with success. > > 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop > rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the higher > rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will gradually > start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be tuning, or > intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop. Or, maybe > the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through the > air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 1500 > rpm on tap but can't use it. > > > > 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is a > new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll try > adjusting the regulator (again). > > > > All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort out > though. > > > > Mark S. > > Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B > > Lockhart, TX > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: > > Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure > all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red > wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. David. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) > > Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to read about > some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the list! Surely > all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching football all day like > us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) > > > > Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection > prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment! > Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the list! :) > > > > Doug > > > --000e0cd1e12ca7e7c5049519fdf2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
=A0
I take it that you're suggesting I spray WD-40 up behind the panel= while someone runs the engine and holds the brakes.=A0 Other than making a= bit of a mess, that should find the leak, if there is one.=A0 I doubt I ca= n use this technique on the engine side (with engine running).=A0 Most woul= d end up on the windscreen, and/or in my face.=A0 Besides, spinning props m= ake me very nervous.=A0
=A0
On the speed issue, I can get it up to speed (around 200 mph) running = WOT at a lower prop setting (1900 - 2100), then dial the prop rpm up to say= 2200 - 2250=A0and you can feel=A0it start slowing down even though the eng= ine rpm has increased with the higher prop setting.=A0=A0Loss of speed is= =A0confirmed by the EM-2.=A0=A0Bobby Hughes states that he has experienced = the same thing with=A0his=A0super-charged=A0Renesis with constant speed M/T= prop.=A0 So, I'm wondering if it may be something in the=A0design of t= he M/T prop.=A0 Since they were designed for use with Lycoming engines, it = seems they ought to=A0perform well up to 2750-2800 rpm.=A0=A0So, it may be = something else causing the problem.=A0
=A0
Mark

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Bill Bradburry= <bbradbur= ry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Hi Mark,=

=A0

You can check f= or vacuum leaks by squirting starting fluid or carb cleaner around the inta= ke system while someone is holding the brakes.

=A0

What is the air= speed when you hit the wall?=A0 You say the speed will gradually start to b= leed off.=A0 Do you mean that the speed initially increases by some value, = then falls back? =A0How much?=A0 Does the engine rpm maintain during this p= hase?=A0 Are you at WOT and just using the prop to control the engine speed= at this time?

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, November 15, = 2010 9:09 AM
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft
Subject:<= /b> [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

=A0

OK, Doug,=A0I'll post my weekend update.=A0

=A0

As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting = my 20B to run as it should.=A0 Problems started about 3 years back when I d= ecided to convert from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.=A0 While I d= id have limited success, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of = the CAS sensor, and possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough t= o figure out.=A0 I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm.=A0 =

=A0

About a month ago I decided that enough was enough an= d I called Tracy to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the origina= l configuration.=A0=A0I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded= the software to the latest version.=A0=A0I got it back on Friday and was a= nxious to see how it would perform.=A0 I installed the upgraded=A0EC-2 on S= aturday.=A0=A0Yea, it started on the third prop blade and ran quite well, a= lthough the Mixture knob was not at "12=A0O'clock", it ran ve= ry smooth.=A0 Following the instructions in the manual, first thing I did w= as to=A0adjust=A0Mode 3=A0to=A0compensate for my larger 60# injectors.=A0 N= ow it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges.=A0 A little adju= sting of the lower addresses using=A0Mode 1=A0& 9 and=A0it was idling d= own=A0around 1500 rpm.=A0 (Keep in mind that this is a=A0p-port motor.)=A0= =A0The exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it=A0is enough to sen= d chills up your leg.=A0 ;-0=A0

=A0

Sunday, after a=A0some more tuning, I got it to where= it would=A0almost do=A07000 rpm static.=A0 (Keep in mind that=A0Lockhart, = TX is a small country town and this was Sunday morning.=A0 You could probab= ly hear me tuning my engine all over town.)=A0 Confident that it would stay= running, I decided it was time to fly.=A0=A0It climbed out at 6700 rpm as = smooth as could be.=A0=A0There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't c= limb too high, but the air=A0was silky smooth.=A0 I flew a couple of patter= ns, climbing as I circled.=A0 At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning= with Mode 9 at different MAP settings.=A0 Up and down the scale,=A0fine-tu= ning each address.=A0 She was running like=A0a fine Swiss watch, or to put = it another way, like a rotary should.=A0=A0

=A0

Issues:=A0

1)=A0 MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vac= uum leak as the=A0MAP at idle is reading 17.4".=A0 Next trip to the ai= rport I will double-check to make sure that=A0I got both lines plugged into= the EC-2 properly,=A0and check for leaks elsewhere.=A0 It is amazing that = it=A0idles as well as it does under these circumstances.=A0=A0Note that rat= her than using a throttle body,=A0I am using a slide-throttle which is loca= ted=A0just a few inches from the intake ports.=A0 So,=A0the vacuum lines ar= e plugged into the unused oil injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil= injection pump).=A0=A0Could this=A0account for the=A0unusual MAP readings?= =A0 I do have a plenum, but since=A0it is open to the atmosphere, I can'= ;t=A0measure MAP from there.=A0 I think there are others that use this sche= me with success.=A0

2)=A0Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at arou= nd 2000-2100 prop rpm.=A0=A0I can=A0set=A0the prop=A0higher and=A0get a=A0h= igher engine rpm, but the=A0higher rpm doesn't translate into higher sp= eeds.=A0 The speed=A0will gradually start=A0bleeding off.=A0 Not sure why t= his is happening.=A0 Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or=A0just a= characteristic of the M/T prop.=A0=A0Or, maybe the engine isn't making= enough horsepower to push the airframe through the air any faster.=A0 It i= s annoying though, knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can= 9;t use it.

=A0

3) Alternator - the voltage reading on=A0main alterna= tor is low.=A0 This is a new alternator which has been converted to externa= l regulator.=A0 I'll try adjusting the regulator (again).=A0

=A0

All in all, a very successful weekend.=A0 As usual, m= ore=A0issues to sort out though.=A0

=A0

Mark S.

Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B

Lockhart, TX

=A0

=A0


=A0

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net>= wrote:

Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork ag= ain to make sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had d= inner, a sweet red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know= .=A0 David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in aircraf= t" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are = those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be= 321...don't you think David?!=A0 I'm still hoping=A0to read=A0abou= t some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the list!=A0=A0Su= rely all our aviators weren't=A0just sitting around watching football a= ll day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!!=A0=A0=A0:)=A0=A0

=A0

Mucho congrat= s on getting your project to the point of final inspection prior to first f= light!=A0 Take your time, be safe, and enjoy=A0the moment!=A0 Then=A0post s= ome pictures / data of the big event on the list!=A0 :)=A0=A0=A0=A0<= /font>

=A0

Doug

=A0

<= br> --000e0cd1e12ca7e7c5049519fdf2--