X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm27-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.232] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with SMTP id 4579656 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:05:27 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.232; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.65] by nm27.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2010 15:04:51 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.36] by tm5.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2010 15:04:51 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1036.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2010 15:04:51 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 764474.80691.bm@omp1036.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 78732 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Nov 2010 15:04:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1289833491; bh=34NBRAKXvyho8LAKeRQl2+dEERbu5JnaWpTZEnsSu8o=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wgJ+0jTZQi1YbL76r9WiZX2OxF6cYXMrC1Mjxb7GyqAWGy93bl8L7WLLhwMvPMIhCbCjhJ/qEWrdlmdKV4GzX9mV8dGJh7dRuPTazUxiDyit9hCHmsqwzpziRUVYPxPc2zcbZaeeiQKYfRrLZ4LoMXuewcLdzR1ygPFyvT1zMd0= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WR1eRZGxs5UzoqsuhJqgoIX3fT9HEymsseNgYCg6Uk9E8VAgT6SNvM5xbAUEey+BtZnHgXh0HyvdnvGSE9YlpsCnBFKwXBpmmPATX40m/ZWmEF/9qu3GE1cVT+5K2YSaUs8KmSBQAzfOF/l5l9tenQmw+9gQY8Cu/D5KkMXRjs4=; Message-ID: <384111.78714.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: zjOo9z0VM1mCprLv6OKau_9h3bMUSqoSzsZ5NtFzJuJfnkm 6IkuhJY37lTjN.BEL_jQ4AkhMlaW1Tv_LLdozVI2qH2hlOdTw5bqM87NCgjz K11ozVxSQ2MNx4uZ9X284.UORgjt0imivgGMnjjZNrAwN3eezzsDpTXWqfHa ReywHLLv9URCxJqsSTR5TrNmCXsBa3pV39PqYIsL4gMq5WveF2R_iH_sja5f 18RJ90LtHYSLo.wa6YvkcLUrMJrYcr.iReO8qwv9fD5_Njp2S2xR3jDi.qLu l7mMJZuk8SvLypyfn4rGmJw-- Received: from [208.114.43.115] by web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 07:04:50 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 07:04:50 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-374622847-1289833490=:78714" --0-374622847-1289833490=:78714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0A=A0=A0=A0 What was your idle MP before the EC2 update ?............= ...Do you have =0Aany=A0video with =0A=0Asounds of that "Leg=A0Chilling" 20= B at idle=A0?.................I could use a thrill =0A!!.................<:= )=0A=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engi= ne=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_= TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ed Ande= rson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 AM=0ASubject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)=0A=0A=0A70= 00 rpm static - WoW!=A0 sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to absorb = the =0Apower - tough situation to be in - NOT!=0A=A0=0ARegarding your 17" m= anifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison=A0 of port =0Atiming inform= ation from Paul Yaw=0AYou can see that the total open time of the PP is con= siderable greater than the =0Aturbo 13B.=A0 So for a given rpm, I would con= clude that since average amount of =0Atime =A0the PP intake is open longer = to the atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo =0A13B, =A0that the intake ma= nifold pressure would be higher for the same rpm.=A0 So =0Awhat you are see= ing just may well be "normal" for a PP port.=0A=A0=0ABut then I don't own a= nd have no experience with a PP.=0A=A0=0AEd=0A=A0=0A=A0 =0A=A0Second and Th= ird Generation Turbo 13BIO 32=B0 ATDC=0AIC 50=B0 ABDC=0AEO 71=B0 BBDC=0AEC = 48=B0 ATDC Mazda Factory Peripheral Port=0AIO 86=B0 BTDC=0AIC 75=B0 ABDC=0A= EO 73=B0 BBDC=0AEC 65=B0 ATDC =0A=A0=0A=A0=0AA=0A=A0=0AASThis site is meant= to give information=0A=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ASent: Monday, November 1= 5, 2010 9:09 AM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)=0A=0AOK, Doug,=A0I'll p= ost my weekend update.=A0 =0A=0AAs some of you may know, I have had trouble= s getting my 20B to run as it =0Ashould.=A0 Problems started about 3 years = back when I decided to convert from the =0Astock CAS to the Renesis style C= AS.=A0 While I did have limited success, it was =0Avery sensitive to alignm= ent and air gap of the CAS sensor, and possibly some =0Aother issues that I= am not smart enough to figure out.=A0 I had trouble getting it =0Ato run a= bove 5800 rpm.=A0 =0A=0A=0AAbout a month ago I decided that enough was enou= gh and I called Tracy to say =0Athat I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the= original configuration.=A0=A0I sent it =0Aback to Tracy who made the mod a= nd upgraded the software to the latest =0Aversion.=A0=A0I got it back on Fr= iday and was anxious to see how it would perform.=A0 =0AI installed the upg= raded=A0EC-2 on Saturday.=A0=A0Yea, it started on the third prop =0Ablade a= nd ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at "12=A0O'clock", it = =0Aran very smooth.=A0 Following the instructions in the manual, first thin= g I did =0Awas to=A0adjust=A0Mode 3=A0to=A0compensate for my larger 60# inj= ectors.=A0 Now it was =0Arunning really well in the upper rpm/map ranges.= =A0 A little adjusting of the =0Alower addresses using=A0Mode 1=A0& 9 and= =A0it was idling down=A0around 1500 rpm.=A0 (Keep =0Ain mind that this is a= =A0p-port motor.)=A0=A0The exhaust tone at low idle is hard to =0Adescribe.= ..it=A0is enough to send chills up your leg.=A0 ;-0=A0 =0A=0A=0ASunday, aft= er a=A0some more tuning, I got it to where it would=A0almost do=A07000 rpm = =0Astatic.=A0 (Keep in mind that=A0Lockhart, TX is a small country town and= this was =0ASunday morning.=A0 You could probably hear me tuning my engine= all over town.)=A0 =0AConfident that it would stay running, I decided it w= as time to fly.=A0=A0It climbed =0Aout at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be.= =A0=A0There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't =0Aclimb too high, but the a= ir=A0was silky smooth.=A0 I flew a couple of patterns, =0Aclimbing as I cir= cled.=A0 At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode =0A9 at di= fferent MAP settings.=A0 Up and down the scale,=A0fine-tuning each address.= =A0 =0AShe was running like=A0a fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way,= like a rotary =0Ashould.=A0=A0=0A=0AIssues:=A0 =0A1)=A0 MAP Readings - It = appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the=A0MAP at idle =0Ais reading 17= .4".=A0 Next trip to the airport I will double-check to make sure =0Athat= =A0I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly,=A0and check for leaks = =0Aelsewhere.=A0 It is amazing that it=A0idles as well as it does under the= se =0Acircumstances.=A0=A0Note that rather than using a throttle body,=A0I = am using a =0Aslide-throttle which is located=A0just a few inches from the = intake ports.=A0 =0ASo,=A0the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil = injection ports in the =0Arotor housings (no oil injection pump).=A0=A0Coul= d this=A0account for the=A0unusual MAP =0Areadings?=A0 I do have a plenum, = but since=A0it is open to the atmosphere, I =0Acan't=A0measure MAP from the= re.=A0 I think there are others that use this scheme =0Awith success.=A0 = =0A=0A=0A2)=A0Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 = prop rpm.=A0=A0I =0Acan=A0set=A0the prop=A0higher and=A0get a=A0higher engi= ne rpm, but the=A0higher rpm doesn't =0Atranslate into higher speeds.=A0 Th= e speed=A0will gradually start=A0bleeding off.=A0 Not =0Asure why this is h= appening.=A0 Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or=A0just =0Aa char= acteristic of the M/T prop.=A0=A0Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough = =0Ahorsepower to push the airframe through the air any faster.=A0 It is ann= oying =0Athough, knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't us= e it.=0A=0A3) Alternator - the voltage reading on=A0main alternator is low.= =A0 This is a new =0Aalternator which has been converted to external regula= tor.=A0 I'll try adjusting =0Athe regulator (again).=A0 =0A=0A=0AAll in all= , a very successful weekend.=A0 As usual, more=A0issues to sort out =0Athou= gh.=A0 =0A=0A=0AMark S.=0ALancair ES, N/A P-port 20B=0ALockhart, TX=0A=0A= =0A=0A=A0=0AOn Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrot= e:=0A=0ARodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to ma= ke sure all =0Aducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a s= weet red wine =0Amarinade is the secret to good tender duck you know.=A0 Da= vid.=0A>----- Original Message -----=0A>From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com=0A>To: "Rota= ry motors in aircraft" =0A>Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless= staples...(from David)=0A>=0A>Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!= =A0 I'm still hoping=A0to read=A0about some =0A>flying exploits from this w= eekend, from someone on the list!=A0=A0Surely all our =0A>aviators weren't= =A0just sitting around watching football all day like us gimpy / =0A>DNIF g= uys!!!!=A0=A0=A0:)=A0=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>Mucho congrats on getting your project= to the point of final inspection prior to =0A>first flight!=A0 Take your t= ime, be safe, and enjoy=A0the moment!=A0 Then=A0post some =0A>pictures / da= ta of the big event on the list!=A0 :)=A0=A0=A0=A0=0A>=0A>Doug=0A --0-374622847-1289833490=:78714 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Mark,
=0A
    What was your= idle MP before the EC2 update ?...............Do you have any video w= ith
=0A
sounds of that "Leg Chilling" 20B at idle ?....= .............I could use a thrill !!.................<:)
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A<= P>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Man= ifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A=0A
=0AFrom: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com= >
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are tho= se 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

=0A
7000 rpm static - WoW!  sounds like not enough pitch in the prop= to absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT!
=0A
=  
=0A
Regarding = your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison  of port tim= ing information from Paul Yaw
=0A
You ca= n see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater than the t= urbo 13B.  So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since average amo= unt of time  the PP intake is open longer to the atmosphere for the sa= me RPM as a turbo 13B,  that the intake manifold pressure would be hig= her for the same rpm.  So what you are seeing just may well be "normal= " for a PP port.
=0A
 
= =0A
But then I don't own and have no experience with= a PP.
=0A
 
=0A
Ed
=0A
 =0A
  =0A

 

=0ASecond and Third Generation Turbo 13B=0A

IO 32=B0 ATDC
IC 50=B0 ABDC
E= O 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC

=0A

Mazda Factory Peripheral Port

=0A

IO 86=B0 BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 BBDC
EC 65=B0 ATDC

=0A

 

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A

A

=0A

 

=0A

AS= This site is meant to give information

=0A=0A

=0A
OK, Doug= , I'll post my weekend update. 
=0A
 
=0AAs some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it s= hould.  Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert = from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.  While I did have limited= success, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor,= and possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out.&n= bsp; I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. 
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I = called Tracy to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original co= nfiguration.  I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgrad= ed the software to the latest version.  I got it back on Friday a= nd was anxious to see how it would perform.  I installed the upgraded&= nbsp;EC-2 on Saturday.  Yea, it started on the third prop blade a= nd ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at "12 O'clock", = it ran very smooth.  Following the instructions in the manual, first t= hing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my la= rger 60# injectors.  Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/m= ap ranges.  A little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode = 1 & 9 and it was idling down around 1500 rpm.  (Kee= p in mind that this is a p-port motor.)  The exhaust tone at= low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chills up your leg.&n= bsp; ;-0 
=0A
 
=0A
Sunday, after a some = more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do 7000 rpm static= .  (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and th= is was Sunday morning.  You could probably hear me tuning my engine al= l over town.)  Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was = time to fly.  It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be.&n= bsp; There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the = air was silky smooth.  I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I= circled.  At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 a= t different MAP settings.  Up and down the scale, fine-tuning eac= h address.  She was running like a fine Swiss watch, or to put it= another way, like a rotary should.  
=0A
 
= =0A
Issues: 
=0A
1)  MAP Readings - It appears that= I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP at idle is reading 17.4".  N= ext trip to the airport I will double-check to make sure that I got bo= th lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for leaks elsewhere= .  It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under these cir= cumstances.  Note that rather than using a throttle body, I = am using a slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the = intake ports.  So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused o= il injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil injection pump). &nbs= p;Could this account for the unusual MAP readings?  I do hav= e a plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere, I can't measu= re MAP from there.  I think there are others that use this scheme with= success. 
=0A
2) Performance - I seem to hit a spe= ed wall at around 2000-2100 prop rpm.  I can set the pr= op higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the higher r= pm doesn't translate into higher speeds.  The speed will graduall= y start bleeding off.  Not sure why this is happening.  Coul= d be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the= M/T prop.  Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepower t= o push the airframe through the air any faster.  It is annoying though= , knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it.
=0A<= DIV> 
=0A
3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main al= ternator is low.  This is a new alternator which has been converted to= external regulator.  I'll try adjusting the regulator (again).  =
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
All in all, a very successful wee= kend.  As usual, more issues to sort out though. 
=0A<= DIV> 
=0A
Mark S.
=0A
Lancair ES, N/A P-port 2= 0B
=0A
Lockhart, TX
=0A
 
=0A
 
= =0A

 
=0A
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at= 11:20 PM, <hour= saway1@comcast.net> wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork a= gain to make sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had = dinner, a sweet red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you kno= w.  David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

=0A
Na...gotta be 321...don't you think Dav= id?!  I'm still hoping to read about some flying exploits fr= om this weekend, from someone on the list!  Surely all our aviato= rs weren't just sitting around watching football all day like us gimpy= / DNIF guys!!!!   :)  
=0A
 
= =0A
Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspec= tion prior to first flight!  Take your time, be safe, and enjoy t= he moment!  Then post some pictures / data of the big event on th= e list!  :)    
=0A
 
=0A
D= oug

--0-374622847-1289833490=:78714--