X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost05.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4575334 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:59:59 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.55; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-85-148-241.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.148.241]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with SMTP id <20101111175919H0500hocgee>; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:59:19 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.148.241] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:59:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CB81A0.42F6EBA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcuBw9RD3XY/YSnvQsaDYiBPzrJKZQABTymw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CB81A0.42F6EBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, Two injectors producing 295 CCs (28 pounds) at a duty cycle of 90% are only good for about 90 HP. The backfiring may be caused by going too lean as you run too high a manifold pressure before you stage. With different sized injectors and that small for primary, you may be better off with the stage set at 15-16 inches instead of 19. I would stay away from an area where the EC-2 changes from one area to another. (2500 rpm, 13 inches, 3800 rpm) Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:13 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold What I am doing is pushing button 3 and the aknowledge button, getting the map table and then reading it as it goes through it's paces. I'm starting out at around 1800 rpm and bin 8-28 or so, then it goes up to round bin 70 for the high rpm, high MP table. Advancing up through bin 90, it stages smoothly. But, I think my staging point is about 2-4 inches of MP too high. In asking what the manifold sensor offset and scale factor is, I'm asking what everyone else gets when they push button 3 and then 1, getting the calibration page. Then push button 2 twice to get to the manifold pressure calibrations and let me know what your factory defaults are. I screwed them up early and need to know what the factory settings are. I'm pretty sure I'm staging too high, at about 20-22 inches of MP right now. It should be lower, but I need to ba absolutely sure I have the right MP settings. Thanks, Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 8:45 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Brian, I didn't have to calibrate my manifold pressure readout. It was correct from the start. Sitting in the hangar, it reads the same as my altimeters and barometric pressure info from the tower. Are you sure yours is not correct? On staging, did you set your staging mixture by using mode 6 or by changing the map table? If you set it by using the map table and are getting a different result while flying, you may be at a point where the EC-2 changes to a different area on the MAP table. I suggest you adjust it using mode 6 if you didn't already do that. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [ mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Staging takes place at bin 90- it was stumbling and surging on the ground when I would run it up through this bin- until I richened it up in bins 90-92. Then it would transition without a hiccup through these bins. I had all the injectors cleaned and flowed prior to installation, they all checked out fine. I have 28 lb primaries and 40 lb secondaries. When I was flying, I was flying around at bins 70-80, doing around 90-110 mph, and would advance the throttle through bin 90 and start the backfiring. While it was backfiring, I would lean and richen the mixture with the mixture knob, but the engine would not settle down and the mixture graph would be bouncing around due to erratic firing. The answer is there somewhere, I jsut have to get some more altittude to fiddle with it in a more leisurely fashion. Again, Anyone remember what values they use to set the mainifold scale factor and sensor offset? Thanks, Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson < eanderson@carolina.rr.com> To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 7:21 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Hi Brian, Yep! any time the drone of the engine changes - it immediately gets your attention (or should) {:>). I too have turned on the cold start when meaning to change controllers - but fortunately have always immediately recognized the problem. There are several possibilities about your staging problem. 1. You may not have the cross over adjustment (mode 6) tuned properly and when it stages its either too rich or too lean when running on all four. However, adjustment of you manual mixture control should indicate which direction (lean or rich) helps the situation. 2. Always possible that a secondary injectors is not functioning properly - you should be able to check this possibility easily (if you have the injector disable switches that Tracy shows in his installation). While on the ground - switch off the primary injectors (you may get a momentary hiccup if you secondaries are not adjusted properly, but a quick tweak of the mixture control should keep it running), If it idles/runs fine on the secondaries then they are likely to be OK. 3. You Fuel Map bin values right after the staging point could have inappropriate values - Tracy's default is 128 or I guess it shows up as zero on the EM2 and your adjustments are +- to that zero reference (128). You mention the results of enrichen/leaning was inconclusive - what exactly do you mean? Do you mean you could not tell if the engine was running rich or lean? The Air/fuel Ratio indicator of the EM2 is not giving you consistent readings? Its pretty important as you know to be able to discern what effect any adjustments are having and mixture is one of the more important ones. You'll get it sorted out - some installations simply take a bit more sorting out than others Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: bktrub@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:51 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Interesting manifold. Are you still using the VDO fuel pressure sender? I had heard that it might not be suitable for use with fuel, I am still using mine at present however. I went up today for a few laps at 3000 over Paine Field. The engine ran well below the staging point, but started stumbling when above the staging point. It ran smoothly through the staging transition on the ground, but when in the air I could not tell by the mixture monitor if it was lean or rich. I tried leaning it out and richening it up, but results were inconclusive so I stayed below the staging point for the remainder of the flight. Temps were down around 130 degrees at 4800 RPM and 110 mph, MP was not noted. I accidently hit the cold start switch while on downwind with two other planes ahead of me, the tower told me to go around on final, but the plane ahead turned off onto the taxiway just in time so I told the tower that I would really like to land, so they cleared me. The engine died as I turned off onto the taxiway and then I noticed the cold start switch. The first order of business was making and installing a switch guard for the cold start switch. I'm also going to pre-load the switch with a rubber band so it stays in the off position unless I'm pushing it on, and can just pull the rubber band off of it if I need to shut down a set of injectors and run the remaining injectors on cold start.(limp home mode for failed injector.) The fuel self transfering issue was resolved by installing manual valve on the transfer line between the tanks. Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Havarlah < clouduster@austin.rr.com> To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold As some of you know I started flying my RV-7A with a cut - off Renesis intake manifold. In 2009 I installed an new intake designed to route pressure waves from the closing of rotor #1's intake into rotor #2 just before rotor #2's intake closed. After using the new intake for over a year I am still very happy with it's performance. I gained about 15 mph TAS at the same altitude and manifold pressure My static engine rpm increased 300 to 350 rpm. My takeoffs are faster and shorter with noticeable increase in acceleration My climb rate increased My oil and water cooling is more critical now because I make more HP. But - I must confess I don't believe the manifold can be reproduced economically. It's just too complicated. I also believe it should have slightly shorter intake runners to increase the performance at higher RPM. Decreasing the intake runner length probably would require complete new geometry of the system. I have another concept for designing a Renesis intake that using a reflected wave from Rotor #1 returning to Rotor #1 . I believe it would be much easier to build and small enough to fit into the James rotorary cowl but because my intake works well I am not moving ahead with completing the design and building it. Dennis Haverlah -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CB81A0.42F6EBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brian,

Two injectors producing 295 CCs (28 pounds) at a duty cycle of 90% are only good for about 90 HP.  The = backfiring may be caused by going too lean as you run too high a manifold pressure = before you stage.

With different sized injectors and = that small for primary, you may be better off with the stage set at 15-16 = inches instead of 19.  I would stay away from an area where the EC-2 = changes from one area to another.  (2500 rpm, 13 inches, 3800 = rpm)

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November = 11, 2010 12:13 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold

 

What I am doing is pushing button = 3 and the aknowledge button, getting the map table and then reading it as it = goes through it's paces. I'm starting out at around 1800 rpm and bin 8-28 or = so, then it goes up to round bin 70 for the high rpm, high MP table. = Advancing up through bin 90, it stages smoothly. But, I think my staging point is = about 2-4 inches of MP too high.

 

=

In asking what the manifold sensor = offset and scale factor is, I'm asking what everyone else gets when they push = button 3 and then 1, getting the calibration page. Then push button 2 twice to = get to the manifold pressure calibrations and let me know what your factory = defaults are. I screwed them up early and need to know what the factory settings = are.

 

=

 

=

I'm pretty sure I'm staging too = high, at about 20-22 inches of MP right now. It should be lower, but I need to ba absolutely sure I have the right MP settings. =

 

=

Thanks, =

 

=

Brian Trubee

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 8:45 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold

Brian,

I didn’t have to calibrate my manifold pressure readout.  It was correct from the start.  = Sitting in the hangar, it reads the same as my altimeters and barometric = pressure info from the tower.  Are you sure yours is not = correct?

 

On staging, did you set your = staging mixture by using mode 6 or by changing the map table?  If you set = it by using the map table and are getting a different result while flying, you = may be at a point where the EC-2 changes to a different area on the MAP = table.  I suggest you adjust it using mode 6 if you didn’t already do = that.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November = 11, 2010 11:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold

 

Staging takes place at bin 90- it = was stumbling and surging on the ground when I would run it up through this = bin- until I richened it up in bins 90-92. Then it would transition without a = hiccup through these bins. I had all the injectors cleaned and flowed prior to installation, they all checked out fine. I have 28 lb primaries and 40 = lb secondaries.

 

=

When I was flying, I was flying = around at bins 70-80, doing around 90-110 mph, and would advance the throttle = through bin 90 and start the backfiring. While it was backfiring, I would lean and = richen the mixture with the mixture knob, but the engine would not settle down = and the mixture graph would be bouncing around due to erratic firing. The answer = is there somewhere, I jsut have to get some more altittude to fiddle with = it in a more leisurely fashion.

 

=

Again, Anyone remember what values = they use to set the mainifold scale factor and sensor = offset?

 

=

Thanks,

 

=

Brian = Trubee

 

=

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com><= br> To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 7:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold

Hi = Brian,

 

=

 

=

Yep! any time the drone of the = engine changes - it immediately gets your attention (or should) {:>).  = I too have turned on the cold start when meaning to change = controllers - but fortunately have always immediately recognized the = problem.

 

=

There are several possibilities = about your staging problem. 

 

=

1.  You may not have the = cross over adjustment (mode 6) tuned properly and when it stages its either = too rich or too lean when running on all four.  However, adjustment of you = manual mixture control should indicate which direction (lean or rich) helps the situation.

 

=

2.  Always possible that a = secondary injectors is not functioning properly - you should be able to check this possibility easily (if you have the injector disable switches that = Tracy shows in = his installation).  While on the ground - switch off the primary injectors (you may get a momentary hiccup if you secondaries are not = adjusted properly, but a quick tweak of the mixture control should keep it = running), If it idles/runs fine on the secondaries then they are likely to be = OK.

 

=

3.  You Fuel Map bin values = right after the staging point could have inappropriate values - Tracy's = default is 128 or I guess it shows up as zero on the EM2 and your adjustments = are +- to that zero reference (128).

 

=

 

=

You mention the results of enrichen/leaning was inconclusive - what exactly do you mean?  Do = you mean you could not tell if the engine was running rich or = lean?  The Air/fuel Ratio indicator of the EM2 is not giving you consistent readings?  

 

=

 Its pretty important as you = know to be able to discern what effect any adjustments are having and mixture is = one of the more important ones.

 

=

You'll get it sorted out - some installations simply take a bit more sorting out than = others

 

=

Ed

 

=

Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton = Road
Weddington, = NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

 

=

 

From: bktrub@aol.com =

Sent: Wednesday, = November 10, 2010 9:51 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold

 

=

Interesting manifold. Are you = still using the VDO fuel pressure sender? I had heard that it might not be suitable = for use with fuel, I am still using mine at present however. =

 

=

I went up today for a few laps at = 3000 over Paine Field. The engine ran well below the staging point, but = started stumbling when above the staging point. It ran smoothly through the = staging transition on the ground, but when in the air I could not tell by the = mixture monitor if it was lean or rich. I tried leaning it out and richening it = up, but results were inconclusive so I stayed below the staging point for the = remainder of the flight. Temps were down around 130 degrees at 4800 RPM and 110 = mph, MP was not noted.

 

=

I accidently hit the cold start = switch while on downwind with two other planes ahead of me, the tower told me = to go around on final, but the plane ahead turned off onto the taxiway just in = time so I told the tower that I would really like to land, so they cleared me. = The engine died as I turned off onto the taxiway and then I noticed the cold = start switch. The first order of business was making and installing a switch = guard for the cold start switch. I'm also going to pre-load the switch with a = rubber band so it stays in the off position unless I'm pushing it on, and can = just pull the rubber band off of it if I need to shut down a set of injectors = and run the remaining injectors on cold start.(limp home mode for failed = injector.)

 

=

The fuel self transfering issue = was resolved by installing manual valve on the transfer line between the = tanks.

 

=

Brian = Trubee

 

=

 

=

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Havarlah <clouduster@austin.rr.com> To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold

As some of you know I started = flying my RV-7A with a cut - off Renesis intake manifold.  In 2009 I = installed an new intake designed to route pressure waves from the closing = of rotor #1's intake into rotor #2 just before rotor #2's intake = closed.  After using the new intake for over a year I am still very happy = with it's performance.

 

=

I gained about 15 mph TAS at the = same altitude and manifold pressure

My static engine rpm increased 300 = to 350 rpm.

My takeoffs are faster and shorter = with noticeable increase in acceleration

My climb rate = increased

My oil and water cooling is more = critical now because I make more HP.

 

=

But - I must confess I don't = believe the manifold can be reproduced economically.  It's just too = complicated.

I also believe it should have = slightly shorter intake runners to increase the performance at higher RPM.  Decreasing the intake runner length probably would require complete new geometry of the system.

 

=

I have another concept for = designing a Renesis intake that using a reflected wave from Rotor #1 returning = to Rotor #1 .  

I believe it would be much easier = to build and small enough to fit into the James rotorary cowl but because = my intake works well I am not moving ahead with completing the design and = building it.

 

=

Dennis Haverlah

 

=

 

=

 

=

 

=
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