X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.39] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4575268 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:13:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.39; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-ma01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id oABHCoKw028648 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:12:50 -0500 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.cf6.7c5050da (37571) for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-de03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-de03.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.170]) by cia-mb04.mx.aol.com (v129.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB048-b2524cdc24019; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:12:41 -0500 Received: from webmail-m071 (webmail-m071.sim.aol.com [64.12.141.17]) by smtprly-de03.mx.aol.com (v129.5) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDE036-b2524cdc24019; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:12:33 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:12:33 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 108.3.31.54 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CD4FDAC3C9C67B_1194_1F0B6_webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 32843-STANDARD Received: from 108.3.31.54 by webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com (64.12.141.17) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:12:33 -0500 Message-Id: <8CD4FDAC3C040F7-1194-D055@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CD4FDAC3C9C67B_1194_1F0B6_webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" What I am doing is pushing button 3 and the aknowledge button, getting the= map table and then reading it as it goes through it's paces. I'm starting= out at around 1800 rpm and bin 8-28 or so, then it goes up to round bin= 70 for the high rpm, high MP table. Advancing up through bin 90, it stage= s smoothly. But, I think my staging point is about 2-4 inches of MP too hi= gh. In asking what the manifold sensor offset and scale factor is, I'm asking= what everyone else gets when they push button 3 and then 1, getting the= calibration page. Then push button 2 twice to get to the manifold pressur= e calibrations and let me know what your factory defaults are. I screwed= them up early and need to know what the factory settings are.=20 I'm pretty sure I'm staging too high, at about 20-22 inches of MP right no= w. It should be lower, but I need to ba absolutely sure I have the right= MP settings.=20 Thanks,=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 8:45 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake mani= fold Brian, I didn=E2=80=99t have to calibrate my manifold pressure readout. It was= correct from the start. Sitting in the hangar, it reads the same as my= altimeters and barometric pressure info from the tower. Are you sure you= rs is not correct? =20 On staging, did you set your staging mixture by using mode 6 or by changin= g the map table? If you set it by using the map table and are getting a= different result while flying, you may be at a point where the EC-2 chang= es to a different area on the MAP table. I suggest you adjust it using mo= de 6 if you didn=E2=80=99t already do that. =20 Bill B =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake mani= fold =20 Staging takes place at bin 90- it was stumbling and surging on the ground= when I would run it up through this bin- until I richened it up in bins= 90-92. Then it would transition without a hiccup through these bins. I ha= d all the injectors cleaned and flowed prior to installation, they all che= cked out fine. I have 28 lb primaries and 40 lb secondaries.=20 =20 When I was flying, I was flying around at bins 70-80, doing around 90-110= mph, and would advance the throttle through bin 90 and start the backfiri= ng. While it was backfiring, I would lean and richen the mixture with the= mixture knob, but the engine would not settle down and the mixture graph= would be bouncing around due to erratic firing. The answer is there somew= here, I jsut have to get some more altittude to fiddle with it in a more= leisurely fashion.=20 =20 Again, Anyone remember what values they use to set the mainifold scale fac= tor and sensor offset? =20 Thanks, =20 Brian Trubee =20 -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 7:21 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake mani= fold Hi Brian, =20 =20 Yep! any time the drone of the engine changes - it immediately gets your= attention (or should) {:>). I too have turned on the cold start when mea= ning to change controllers - but fortunately have always immediately recog= nized the problem. =20 There are several possibilities about your staging problem. =20 =20 1. You may not have the cross over adjustment (mode 6) tuned properly and= when it stages its either too rich or too lean when running on all four.= However, adjustment of you manual mixture control should indicate which= direction (lean or rich) helps the situation. =20 2. Always possible that a secondary injectors is not functioning properly= - you should be able to check this possibility easily (if you have the in= jector disable switches that Tracy shows in his installation). While on= the ground - switch off the primary injectors (you may get a momentary hi= ccup if you secondaries are not adjusted properly, but a quick tweak of th= e mixture control should keep it running), If it idles/runs fine on the se= condaries then they are likely to be OK. =20 3. You Fuel Map bin values right after the staging point could have inapp= ropriate values - Tracy's default is 128 or I guess it shows up as zero on= the EM2 and your adjustments are +- to that zero reference (128). =20 =20 You mention the results of enrichen/leaning was inconclusive - what exactl= y do you mean? Do you mean you could not tell if the engine was running= rich or lean? The Air/fuel Ratio indicator of the EM2 is not giving you= consistent readings? =20 =20 Its pretty important as you know to be able to discern what effect any ad= justments are having and mixture is one of the more important ones. =20 You'll get it sorted out - some installations simply take a bit more sorti= ng out than others =20 Ed =20 Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com =20 =20 From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:51 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake mani= fold =20 Interesting manifold. Are you still using the VDO fuel pressure sender? I= had heard that it might not be suitable for use with fuel, I am still usi= ng mine at present however.=20 =20 I went up today for a few laps at 3000 over Paine Field. The engine ran we= ll below the staging point, but started stumbling when above the staging= point. It ran smoothly through the staging transition on the ground, but= when in the air I could not tell by the mixture monitor if it was lean or= rich. I tried leaning it out and richening it up, but results were inconc= lusive so I stayed below the staging point for the remainder of the flight= . Temps were down around 130 degrees at 4800 RPM and 110 mph, MP was not= noted.=20 =20 I accidently hit the cold start switch while on downwind with two other pl= anes ahead of me, the tower told me to go around on final, but the plane= ahead turned off onto the taxiway just in time so I told the tower that= I would really like to land, so they cleared me. The engine died as I tur= ned off onto the taxiway and then I noticed the cold start switch. The fir= st order of business was making and installing a switch guard for the cold= start switch. I'm also going to pre-load the switch with a rubber band so= it stays in the off position unless I'm pushing it on, and can just pull= the rubber band off of it if I need to shut down a set of injectors and= run the remaining injectors on cold start.(limp home mode for failed inje= ctor.) =20 The fuel self transfering issue was resolved by installing manual valve on= the transfer line between the tanks.=20 =20 Brian Trubee =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Havarlah To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold As some of you know I started flying my RV-7A with a cut - off Renesis int= ake manifold. In 2009 I installed an new intake designed to route pressur= e waves from the closing of rotor #1's intake into rotor #2 just before ro= tor #2's intake closed. After using the new intake for over a year I am= still very happy with it's performance. =20 I gained about 15 mph TAS at the same altitude and manifold pressure My static engine rpm increased 300 to 350 rpm. My takeoffs are faster and shorter with noticeable increase in acceleratio= n My climb rate increased My oil and water cooling is more critical now because I make more HP. =20 But - I must confess I don't believe the manifold can be reproduced econom= ically. It's just too complicated. I also believe it should have slightly shorter intake runners to increase= the performance at higher RPM. Decreasing the intake runner length proba= bly would require complete new geometry of the system. =20 I have another concept for designing a Renesis intake that using a reflect= ed wave from Rotor #1 returning to Rotor #1 . =20 I believe it would be much easier to build and small enough to fit into th= e James rotorary cowl but because my intake works well I am not moving ahe= ad with completing the design and building it. =20 Dennis Haverlah =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html =20 ----------MB_8CD4FDAC3C9C67B_1194_1F0B6_webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
What I am doing is pushin= g button 3 and the aknowledge button, getting the map table and then readi= ng it as it goes through it's paces. I'm starting out at around 1800 rpm= and bin 8-28 or so, then it goes up to round bin 70 for the high rpm, hig= h MP table. Advancing up through bin 90, it stages smoothly. But, I think= my staging point is about 2-4 inches of MP too high.
 
In asking what the manifold sensor offset and scale factor is, I'm as= king what everyone else gets when they push button 3 and then 1, getting= the calibration page. Then push button 2 twice to get to the manifold pre= ssure calibrations and let me know what your factory defaults are. I screw= ed them up early and need to know what the factory settings are.
 
 
I'm pretty sure I'm staging too high, at about 20-22 inches of MP rig= ht now. It should be lower, but I need to ba absolutely sure I have the ri= ght MP settings.
 
Thanks,
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 8:45 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake mani= fold

Brian,
I didn=E2=80=99t ha= ve to calibrate my manifold pressure readout.  It was correct from th= e start.  Sitting in the hangar, it reads the same as my altimeters= and barometric pressure info from the tower.  Are you sure yours is= not correct?
 
On staging, did you= set your staging mixture by using mode 6 or by changing the map table?&nb= sp; If you set it by using the map table and are getting a different resul= t while flying, you may be at a point where the EC-2 changes to a differen= t area on the MAP table.  I suggest you adjust it using mode 6 if you= didn=E2=80=99t already do that.
 
Bill B
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of b= ktrub@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November= 11, 2010 11:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold
 
Staging takes pla= ce at bin 90- it was stumbling and surging on the ground when I would run= it up through this bin- until I richened it up in bins 90-92. Then it wou= ld transition without a hiccup through these bins. I had all the injectors= cleaned and flowed prior to installation, they all checked out fine. I ha= ve 28 lb primaries and 40 lb secondaries.
 
When I was flying= , I was flying around at bins 70-80, doing around 90-110 mph, and would ad= vance the throttle through bin 90 and start the backfiring. While it was= backfiring, I would lean and richen the mixture with the mixture knob, bu= t the engine would not settle down and the mixture graph would be bouncing= around due to erratic firing. The answer is there somewhere, I jsut have= to get some more altittude to fiddle with it in a more leisurely fashion.=
 
Again, Anyone rem= ember what values they use to set the mainifold scale factor and sensor of= fset?
 
Thanks,
 
Brian Trubee
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanders= on@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 7:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake mani= fold
Hi Brian,<= /FONT>
 
 
Yep! any time the= drone of the engine changes - it immediately gets your attention (or shou= ld) {:>).  I too have turned on the cold start when meaning to&nbs= p;change controllers - but fortunately have always immediately recogn= ized the problem.
 
There are several= possibilities about your staging problem. 
 
1.  You may&= nbsp;not have the cross over adjustment (mode 6) tuned properly and when= it stages its either too rich or too lean when running on all four. = However, adjustment of you manual mixture control should indicate which= direction (lean or rich) helps the situation.
 
2.  Always= possible that a secondary injectors is not functioning properly - you sho= uld be able to check this possibility easily (if you have the injector dis= able switches that Tracy shows in his installation).  While on the gr= ound - switch off the primary injectors (you may get a momentary hicc= up if you secondaries are not adjusted properly, but a quick tweak of the= mixture control should keep it running), If it idles/runs fine on the sec= ondaries then they are likely to be OK.
 
3.  You Fuel= Map bin values right after the staging point could have inappropriat= e values - Tracy's default is 128 or I guess it shows up as zero on the EM= 2 and your adjustments are +- to that zero reference (128).<= /div>
 
 
You mention the= results of enrichen/leaning was inconclusive - what exactly do you mean?&= nbsp; Do you mean you could not tell if the engine was running rich or lea= n?  The Air/fuel Ratio indicator of the EM2 is not giving you co= nsistent readings?  
 
 Its pretty= important as you know to be able to discern what effect any adjustments= are having and mixture is one of the more important ones.
 
You'll get it sor= ted out - some installations simply take a bit more sorting out than other= s
 
Ed<= /div>
 
Edward L. Anderso= n
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.anderson= ee.com
http://www.eicomma= nder.com
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:51 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my ne= w (2009) intake manifold
 
Interesting manif= old. Are you still using the VDO fuel pressure sender? I had heard that it= might not be suitable for use with fuel, I am still using mine at present= however.
 
I went up today= for a few laps at 3000 over Paine Field. The engine ran well below the st= aging point, but started stumbling when above the staging point. It ran sm= oothly through the staging transition on the ground, but when in the air= I could not tell by the mixture monitor if it was lean or rich. I tried= leaning it out and richening it up, but results were inconclusive so I st= ayed below the staging point for the remainder of the flight. Temps were= down around 130 degrees at 4800 RPM and 110 mph, MP was not noted.
 
I accidently hit= the cold start switch while on downwind with two other planes ahead of me= , the tower told me to go around on final, but the plane ahead turned off= onto the taxiway just in time so I told the tower that I would really lik= e to land, so they cleared me. The engine died as I turned off onto the ta= xiway and then I noticed the cold start switch. The first order of busines= s was making and installing a switch guard for the cold start switch. I'm= also going to pre-load the switch with a rubber band so it stays in the= off position unless I'm pushing it on, and can just pull the rubber band= off of it if I need to shut down a set of injectors and run the remaining= injectors on cold start.(limp home mode for failed injector.)
 
The fuel self tra= nsfering issue was resolved by installing manual valve on the transfer lin= e between the tanks.
 
Brian Trubee
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Havarlah <clou= duster@austin.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold=
As some of you kn= ow I started flying my RV-7A with a cut - off Renesis intake manifold.&nbs= p; In 2009 I installed an new intake designed to route pressure waves=  from the closing of rotor #1's intake into rotor #2 just before= rotor #2's intake closed.  After using the new intake for over a yea= r I am still very happy with it's performance.
 
I gained about 15= mph TAS at the same altitude and manifold pressure
My static engine= rpm increased 300 to 350 rpm.
My takeoffs are= faster and shorter with noticeable increase in acceleration=
My climb rate inc= reased
My oil and water= cooling is more critical now because I make more HP.
 
But - I must conf= ess I don't believe the manifold can be reproduced economically.  It'= s just too complicated.
I also believe it= should have slightly shorter intake runners to increase the performance= at higher RPM.  Decreasing the intake runner length probably would= require complete new geometry of the system.
 
I have another co= ncept for designing a Renesis intake that using a reflected wave from= Rotor #1 returning to Rotor #1 .  
I believe it woul= d be much easier to build and small enough to fit into the James rotorary= cowl but because my intake works well I am not moving ahead with completi= ng the design and building it.
 
Dennis Haverlah
 
 
 
<=
SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--
Homepage: = http://www.flyrotar= y.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mai=
l.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
 
----------MB_8CD4FDAC3C9C67B_1194_1F0B6_webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com--