X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4575186 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:08:43 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=pepdxKapwHuwCZNFD5uob2wvham6E+RljB0uXw08FdQ= c=1 sm=0 a=n1SFxsxpKasA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=84GdtgEno1oTbVDuU3IA:9 a=rhb5UXHFsxOssOlZRkYA:7 a=gGNxUleiFKZAD7Fh8IHCCCH4UWIA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rHCiDmEKJc7PkV7A:21 a=dD1BAz0ZqhzjnDwg:21 a=C_he3lbcvnsQ7dUcNFUA:9 a=UhsO2bSpPL-noD7WLX4A:7 a=eYU-Hm5DRVFBhpOVe8pmxdoum4cA:4 a=oW3LDYnaGjkOUvuB:21 a=uKoaVHYfMNG8g2mu:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:49938] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 93/EB-19545-6E41CDC4; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:08:07 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake manifold Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:08:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01CB8190.B6D90220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CB8190.B6D90220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian, The popping and back-firing could signify either a mixture problem = (could relate to staging parameters not set appropriately) and/or = perhaps ignition timing mis-set. Ed=20 From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 10:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold I'm staging up pretty high- at fuel MAP station 90, I think that's = around 19 inches of manifold, but I am not absolutely sure because the = manifold sensor channel is not dead on in it's calibration. That's why I = asked about what others are using for a scale factor, low end offset, = etc for their manifold pressure. The EM2 reads and uses each manifold = pressure as an absolute value, but displays it according to whatever = settings you have put in for it. So, whatever value that corresponds to = 90 on the MAP table is where it stages. It stages smoothly on the = ground, but in the air it starts doing all sorts of backfiring and = popping that gets all sorts of unwanted attention from the ground. I can = only imagine what observers on teh ground are thinking when they hear = the plane start backfiring.=20 My EC2 is on the left side panel in front of the throttle, which is = mounted on the side of the cockpit. I was wearing flight gloves and had = switched from A to B controller. The switches are so close together that = hitting one will hit the other and you will not feel that through a = gloved finger or thumb. I already installed a switch guard, and will = also have a rubber band holding it in the off postion. Not elegant, but = effective, cheap, and installation an removal is a snap( Ha! I make = funny pun!) Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 4:51 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold That is the second report I have seen of someone hitting the cold start = switch while in flight. The first time there was discussion about = switch guards, etc., which I decided I didn=E2=80=99t need. My cold = start switch is not located anywhere on the panel where I should have my = hands unless I am changing the mixture. But now with two reports, I am = beginning to wonder what I am missing. Where are your cold start switches located and what were you doing when = you accidentally hit them? I just moved my staging point from 15 inches to 16 inches because 15 was = right on top of 3800 rpm where the EC-2 changes map tables. Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:52 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold Interesting manifold. Are you still using the VDO fuel pressure sender? = I had heard that it might not be suitable for use with fuel, I am still = using mine at present however.=20 I went up today for a few laps at 3000 over Paine Field. The engine ran = well below the staging point, but started stumbling when above the = staging point. It ran smoothly through the staging transition on the = ground, but when in the air I could not tell by the mixture monitor if = it was lean or rich. I tried leaning it out and richening it up, but = results were inconclusive so I stayed below the staging point for the = remainder of the flight. Temps were down around 130 degrees at 4800 RPM = and 110 mph, MP was not noted.=20 I accidently hit the cold start switch while on downwind with two other = planes ahead of me, the tower told me to go around on final, but the = plane ahead turned off onto the taxiway just in time so I told the tower = that I would really like to land, so they cleared me. The engine died as = I turned off onto the taxiway and then I noticed the cold start switch. = The first order of business was making and installing a switch guard for = the cold start switch. I'm also going to pre-load the switch with a = rubber band so it stays in the off position unless I'm pushing it on, = and can just pull the rubber band off of it if I need to shut down a set = of injectors and run the remaining injectors on cold start.(limp home = mode for failed injector.) The fuel self transfering issue was resolved by installing manual valve = on the transfer line between the tanks.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Havarlah To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Improved performance of my new (2009) intake = manifold As some of you know I started flying my RV-7A with a cut - off Renesis = intake manifold. In 2009 I installed an new intake designed to route = pressure waves from the closing of rotor #1's intake into rotor #2 just = before rotor #2's intake closed. After using the new intake for over a = year I am still very happy with it's performance. I gained about 15 mph TAS at the same altitude and manifold pressure My static engine rpm increased 300 to 350 rpm. My takeoffs are faster and shorter with noticeable increase in = acceleration My climb rate increased My oil and water cooling is more critical now because I make more HP. But - I must confess I don't believe the manifold can be reproduced = economically. It's just too complicated. I also believe it should have slightly shorter intake runners to = increase the performance at higher RPM. Decreasing the intake runner = length probably would require complete new geometry of the system. I have another concept for designing a Renesis intake that using a = reflected wave from Rotor #1 returning to Rotor #1 . =20 I believe it would be much easier to build and small enough to fit into = the James rotorary cowl but because my intake works well I am not moving = ahead with completing the design and building it. Dennis Haverlah --Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CB8190.B6D90220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brian,
 
The popping and back-firing could signify either = a mixture problem  (could relate to staging parameters not set = appropriately)  and/or perhaps ignition timing = mis-set.

Ed
From: bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 10:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my new = (2009)=20 intake manifold

I'm staging up pretty high- at fuel MAP station 90, I = think=20 that's around 19 inches of manifold, but I am not absolutely sure = because the=20 manifold sensor channel is not dead on in it's calibration. That's why I = asked=20 about what others are using for a scale factor, low end offset, etc for = their=20 manifold pressure. The EM2 reads and uses  each manifold pressure = as an=20 absolute value, but displays it according to whatever settings you have = put in=20 for it. So, whatever value that corresponds to 90 on the MAP table = is where=20 it stages. It stages smoothly on the ground, but in the air it starts = doing all=20 sorts of backfiring and popping that gets all sorts of unwanted = attention from=20 the ground. I can only imagine what observers on teh ground are thinking = when=20 they hear the plane start backfiring.
 
My EC2 is on the left side  panel  in front of the = throttle,=20 which is mounted on the side of the cockpit. I was wearing flight gloves = and had=20 switched from A to B controller. The switches are so close together that = hitting=20 one will hit the other and you will not feel that through a gloved = finger or=20 thumb. I already installed a switch guard, and will also have a rubber = band=20 holding it in the off postion. Not elegant, but effective, cheap, and=20 installation an removal is a snap( Ha! I make funny pun!)
 
Brian Trubee


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry = <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Thu, Nov=20 11, 2010 4:51 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Improved performance of my = new=20 (2009) intake manifold

That is the = second=20 report I have seen of someone hitting the cold start switch while in=20 flight.  The first time there was discussion about switch guards, = etc.,=20 which I decided I didn=E2=80=99t need.  My cold start switch is not = located=20 anywhere on the panel where I should have my hands unless I am changing = the=20 mixture.  But now with two reports, I am beginning to wonder what I = am=20 missing.
Where are = your cold=20 start switches located and what were you doing when you accidentally hit = them?
 
I just moved = my staging=20 point from 15 inches to 16 inches because 15 was right on top of 3800 = rpm where=20 the EC-2 changes map tables.
 
Bill=20 B
 
From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net]=20 On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, = 2010 9:52=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Improved performance of my new (2009) intake=20 manifold
 
Interesting = manifold.=20 Are you still using the VDO fuel pressure sender? I had heard that it = might not=20 be suitable for use with fuel, I am still using mine at present however. =
 
I went up = today for a=20 few laps at 3000 over Paine Field. The engine ran well below the staging = point,=20 but started stumbling when above the staging point. It ran smoothly = through the=20 staging transition on the ground, but when in the air I could not tell = by the=20 mixture monitor if it was lean or rich. I tried leaning it out and = richening it=20 up, but results were inconclusive so I stayed below the staging point = for the=20 remainder of the flight. Temps were down around 130 degrees at 4800 RPM = and 110=20 mph, MP was not noted.
 
I accidently = hit the=20 cold start switch while on downwind with two other planes ahead of me, = the tower=20 told me to go around on final, but the plane ahead turned off onto the = taxiway=20 just in time so I told the tower that I would really like to land, so = they=20 cleared me. The engine died as I turned off onto the taxiway and then I = noticed=20 the cold start switch. The first order of business was making and = installing a=20 switch guard for the cold start switch. I'm also going to pre-load the = switch=20 with a rubber band so it stays in the off position unless I'm pushing it = on, and=20 can just pull the rubber band off of it if I need to shut down a set of=20 injectors and run the remaining injectors on cold start.(limp home mode = for=20 failed injector.)
 
The fuel = self=20 transfering issue was resolved by installing manual valve on the = transfer line=20 between the tanks.
 
Brian=20 Trubee
 
 
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Dennis Havarlah <clouduster@austin.rr.com>=
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, Nov 10, 2010 12:27 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Improved performance = of my=20 new (2009) intake manifold
As some of = you know I=20 started flying my RV-7A with a cut - off Renesis intake manifold.  = In 2009=20 I installed an new intake designed to route pressure = waves from the=20 closing of rotor #1's intake into rotor #2 just before rotor #2's = intake=20 closed.  After using the new intake for over a year I am = still very=20 happy with it's performance.
 
I gained = about 15 mph=20 TAS at the same altitude and manifold pressure
My static = engine rpm=20 increased 300 to 350 rpm.
My takeoffs = are faster=20 and shorter with noticeable increase in = acceleration
My climb = rate=20 increased
My oil and = water=20 cooling is more critical now because I make more = HP.
 
But - I must = confess I=20 don't believe the manifold can be reproduced economically.  It's = just too=20 complicated.
I also = believe it=20 should have slightly shorter intake runners to increase the performance = at=20 higher RPM.  Decreasing the intake runner length probably would = require=20 complete new geometry of the system.
 
I have = another concept=20 for designing a Renesis intake that using a reflected wave from = Rotor #1=20 returning to Rotor #1 .  
I believe it = would be=20 much easier to build and small enough to fit into the James rotorary = cowl but=20 because my intake works well I am not moving ahead with completing the = design=20 and building it.
 
Dennis=20 Haverlah
 
 
 
 
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