X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from exchange.carey.wa.edu.au ([118.82.44.212] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTPS id 4487347 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:02:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=118.82.44.212; envelope-from=stevei@carey.asn.au Received: from exchange.carey.local ([10.10.0.5]) by exchange.carey.local ([10.10.0.5]) with mapi; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:02:02 +0800 From: To: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:02:13 +0800 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Thread-Index: ActgqA49Euuzlf6SRjSaeYKK5QkQWg== Message-ID: <5B493CE0-3ACC-4CE7-9505-A330B5618696@carey.asn.au> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5B493CE03ACC4CE79505A330B5618696careyasnau_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_5B493CE03ACC4CE79505A330B5618696careyasnau_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cheers Ed Steve On 30/09/2010, at 9:39 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Correct, Steve. Technically it is not a closed loop system because the Aut= otune is used to "adjust" the fuel map at some specific point in time, but= then is no longer part of the active real-time process during normal opera= tion. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: stevei@carey.asn.au Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor See what you are saying Ed. Its not a true closed loop system, the feedback is used only to adjust a co= rrection factor in the map. Steve Izett On 30/09/2010, at 8:34 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Hi Steve, I believe that is essentially the correction concept used for making the co= mparison between stoichometric and the O2 signal.. However, Steve Boese's comments about the Autotune function adjusting the f= uel map with the correction factor rather than my implied real-time adjust= ment of the Pulse to the injector, is the way it is actually implementati= on the EC/EM system. That way the adjustments are retained in the fuel map= . Ed From: stevei@carey.asn.au Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Ed, I believe your description is right on. So autotune is a function of feedback to the EC2 from the EM2/3's O2 sensor= . Steve Izett On 30/09/2010, at 3:06 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Al, is correct in that the EC does not directly interface with the O2 senso= r - however, because the autotune option does requires the EM2/3 (at least = I think I recall that being the case) to which the O2 sensor is connected= to, I suspect the following is a likely description of how the autotune fu= nction works. My understanding that - the EM2 is a component of the Auto Tune system of t= he EC. I suspect that the EM2 has a circuit to read the O2 sensor voltage. If the sensor is putting out around 0.450 volts (450 millivolts), then the= air/fuel ratio is close to stoichometric ratio of 14.7:1 air/fuel. If the= EC triggers the injectors and they produce a mixture that is richer than 1= 4.7:1 then the O2 voltage increases. This voltage swing is probably detect= ed by the EM2 and a mixture correction signal sent to the EC to reduce the = pulse width being sent to trigger the injectors thereby reducing the air/fu= el ratio and bringing it back to Stoichometric. Should the O2 voltage drop= below 450 millivolts (indicating leaner that 14.7:1), that deviation is se= nse by the EM2 and a correction sent to the EC to richen the mixture by inc= reasing pulse width of signal sent to injectors. So no EM2 - no autotune function, no Operational O2 sensor also equals no= AutoTune function. But, just a SWAG on my part, Tracy may provide the correct description if h= e gets back to the local Colorado Library {:>). Ed From: Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bill; The EC is not a closed loop system =96 does not use the O2 sensor output = =96 unless something has changed recently. Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bosch 11027 is the O2 sensor that Tracy recommends in the instructions. I = think the controller uses that input to maintain the mixture where you set = it. I don=92t think it is only used for setting the map table. YMMV Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor I have the BOSCH sensor 11027 and it works fine. That=92s what I have also; and I think mine has something close to 150 hrs = and still going fine. I seldom burn avgas, so that helps. I think one needs the O2 sensor for auto tune. Yes, it does. As I understand it; with the knobs centered the EM tunes to = mid-range on the O2 sensor; roughly stoichometric. Al Rino ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:05 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bill, if it=92s a one wire sensor, then just about any of the "universal" 1= wire O2 sensors you find in your auto store will work. If multiwire (I.e. has a heater element and a separate sensor ground wire)= , then you need to get one with the same number of wires. If you get the s= ame make O2 sensor, then the wires should be the same color. Bosch has a wire chart which tells you which color wire is which - this = may help. I always get a Bosch unit - they might cost a few bucks more, bu= t they are generally good quality, available anywhere and you can find the = wire color code. Here's the wiring color code for the "Universal" Bosch un= it. Cable colour allocations for the Universal Oxygen Sensor are as follows, sensor output signal wire =3D black, sensor heater element cables =3D White ( Note - heater is not polarity sensitive ) Sensor signal ground ( where used ) =3D Grey Important: The cable allocations must be assigned correctly. Otherwise the Sensor could be destroyed Don't let them sell you a wide band O2 sensor which a novice parts guy migh= t try to do because they all have 5 -6 wires and might get confused with a = Narrow band O2 sensor with a heater. Ed From: Bill Schertz Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto tune/oxygen sensor Was going to do some auto tune in the air yesterday, to get to some regions= of the performance map that can't be reached on the ground. Took off and the O2 sensor indication completely disappeared from the EM-2 = display. Did one circuit of the airport and landed. Discovered that the O2 sensor had failed (physically -- the top fell off an= d separated from the body). This caused me to raise the following questions= . 1. I believe that the oxygen sensor readout is only that, not used by the E= C-2 for control purposes. 2. When in auto tune, is the EM-2 looking at the sensor for indications of = which way to adjust the mixture? If not, what is the feedback mechanism? I went to the Auto parts store for a replacement, and ran into the problem = that there are 100's of different oxygen sensors, and they need to know wha= t car it came from. Anyone have the specs on what this sensor is? Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing ________________________________ The contents of this email are confidential and intended only for the named= recipients of this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in error, you = are hereby notified that any use, reproduction, disclosure or distribution = or the information contained in this e-mail is prohibited. Please notify th= e sender immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed cop= ies. All liability for viruses is excluded to the fullest extent of the law= . --_000_5B493CE03ACC4CE79505A330B5618696careyasnau_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cheers Ed

Steve
On 30/09/2010, at 9:39 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:
Correct, Steve.  Technically it is not a clo= sed loop=20 system because the Autotune is used to "adjust" the fuel map at some specif= ic=20  point in time, but then is no longer part of the active real-time pro= cess=20 during normal operation. 
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterpr= ises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www= .andersonee.com
http://ww= w.eicommander.com

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor

See what you are saying Ed.=20
Its not a true closed loop system, the feedback is used only to adjust= a=20 correction factor in the map.

Steve Izett
On 30/09/2010, at 8:34 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:

Hi Steve,
 
I believe that is essentially the=20 correction concept used for making the comparison between stoichomet= ric=20 and the O2 signal..
 
However, Steve Boese's comments about the Autot= une=20 function adjusting the fuel map with the correction factor  rather t= han=20 my implied real-time adjustment of the Pulse to the injector,  is th= e way=20 it is  actually implementation the EC/EM system.  That way= the=20 adjustments are retained in the fuel map.
 
Ed 

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor
<= /div>

Ed, I believe your description is right on.=20
So autotune is a function of feedback to the EC2 from the EM2/3's O2= =20 sensor.

Steve Izett
On 30/09/2010, at 3:06 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:

Al, is correct in that the EC does not direct= ly=20 interface with the O2 sensor - however, because the autotune option doe= s=20 requires the EM2/3 (at least I think I recall that being the case)= =20  to  which the O2 sensor is connected to, I suspect the follo= wing=20 is a likely description of how the autotune function works.
 
My understanding that - the EM2 is a componen= t of the=20 Auto Tune system of the EC. 
 
 I suspect that the EM2 has a circuit to= read the=20 O2 sensor voltage. 
 
 If the sensor is putting out around 0.4= 50 volts=20 (450 millivolts), then the air/fuel ratio is close to stoichometric rat= io of=20 14.7:1 air/fuel.  If the EC triggers the injectors and they produc= e a=20 mixture that is richer than 14.7:1 then the O2 voltage increases. = This=20 voltage swing is probably detected by the EM2 and a mixture correction= =20 signal sent to the EC to reduce the pulse width being sent to trigger t= he=20 injectors thereby reducing the air/fuel ratio and bringing it back to=20 Stoichometric.  Should the O2 voltage drop below 450 millivolts=20 (indicating leaner that 14.7:1), that deviation is sense by the EM2 and= a=20 correction sent to the EC to richen the mixture by increasing pulse wid= th of=20 signal sent to injectors.
 
So no EM2 - no autotune function, no Operatio= nal=20  O2 sensor  also equals no AutoTune function. 
 
But, just a SWAG on my part, Tracy may provid= e the=20 correct description if he gets back to the local Colorado Library=20 {:>).
 
Ed
 

Bill;=

<= /span> 

The EC is not a=20 closed loop system =96 does not use the O2 sensor output =96 unless som= ething=20 has changed recently.

 

Al

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft= =20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010= 8:53=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/o= xygen=20 sensor

 

Bosch 11027 is the= =20 O2 sensor that Tracy recommends in the instructions.  I think the= =20 controller uses that input to maintain the mixture where you set it.&nb= sp; I=20 don=92t think it is only used for setting the map table. =20 YMMV

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=  Rotary motors= in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:07=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/o= xygen=20 sensor

=  

 

I have=20 the BOSCH sensor 11027 and it works fine.
That=92s what I= =20 have also; and I think mine has something close to 150 hrs and still go= ing=20 fine.  I seldom burn avgas, so that helps.
I think=20 one needs the O2 sensor for auto tune.
Yes, it=20 does.  As I understand it; with the knobs centered the EM tunes to= =20 mid-range on the O2 sensor; roughly stoichometric.
<= p style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-= SIZE: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"> 

Al

Rino

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, Septem= ber 29, 2010=20 11:05 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : Auto tune/oxygen=20 sensor

 

Bill,=20 if it=92s a one wire sensor, then just about any of the "universal" 1= wire=20 O2 sensors you find in your auto store will=20 work. 

 

 If multiwire (I.e. has a=20 heater element and a separate sensor ground wire), then you need to g= et=20 one with the same number of wires.  If you get the same make O2= =20 sensor, then the wires should be the same color.
<= /div>

 

 =20 Bosch has a wire chart which tells you which color wire is which = ; -=20 this may help.  I always get a Bosch unit - they might cost a fe= w=20 bucks more, but they are generally good quality, available anywhere a= nd=20 you can find the wire color code.  Here's the wiring color code = for=20 the "Universal" Bosch unit.

 

Cable=20 colour allocations for the Universal Oxygen Sensor are as=20 follows,

sensor=20 output signal wire =3D black, = ;sensor heater element cables=20 =3D

White=20 ( Note - heater is not polarity sensitive ) Sensor signal=20 ground

(=20 where used ) =3D Grey

Important:=20 The cable allocations must be assigned correctly.=20 Otherwise

the=20 Sensor could be destroyed

 

Don't=20 let them sell you a wide band O2 sensor which a novice parts guy migh= t try=20 to do because they all have 5 -6 wires and might get confused with a= =20 Narrow band O2 sensor with a heater.

 

Ed

=  

Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010=20 9:10 AM
Subject:=  [FlyRotary] Auto tune/oxygen=20 sensor

 

Was=20 going to do some auto tune in the air yesterday, to get to some regio= ns of=20 the performance map that can't be reached on the=20 ground.

 

Took=20 off and the O2 sensor indication completely disappeared from the EM-2= =20 display. Did one circuit of the airport and=20 landed.

 

Discovered that the O2 sensor=20 had failed (physically -- the top fell off and separated from the bod= y).=20 This caused me to raise the following questions.
<= /div>

 

1. I=20 believe that the oxygen sensor readout is only that, not used by the = EC-2=20 for control purposes.
2.=20 When in auto tune, is the EM-2 looking at the sensor for indications = of=20 which way to adjust the mixture? If not, what is the feedback=20 mechanism?

 

I went=20 to the Auto parts store for a replacement, and ran into the problem t= hat=20 there are 100's of different oxygen sensors, and they need to know wh= at=20 car it came from. Anyone have the specs on what this sensor=20 is?

 

 

Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I=20 testing


The contents of this email= are confidential=20 and intended only for the named recipients of this e-mail. If you have=20 received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 reproduction, disclosure or distribution or the information contained in = this=20 e-mail is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately and then=20 delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed copies. All liability for virus= es is=20 excluded to the fullest extent of the=20 law.


= --_000_5B493CE03ACC4CE79505A330B5618696careyasnau_--