X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4487299 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:40:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=/wPbbLlNx4yf8SUm0NWu5W7XZrQwS6yDV9JD17FB+as= c=1 sm=0 a=61ju2Vd_9Q4A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=aJu5JxgEuinq1mnrAN0A:9 a=GDuIVBnaxp8EkETBAEAA:7 a=X81mh3e3NuwoAyAC5C_kqNZ2JhkA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4Q9XcFJfFdCYT9rY:21 a=VAZ3GVvIJYi2oPWz:21 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=E93lBu2AAAAA:8 a=3Uf3PN7X-aeJ9zU4rfEA:9 a=Sa4wjA1FP-YnE5CIKUoA:7 a=BG8J-9N3yM4QzW6t_qJJf16vGEcA:4 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=hO30gm18fF0A:10 a=MpuOTR30KwMA:10 a=FOUTPhXFUAcA:10 a=zgjei8Deq7QA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:50414] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id C0/FA-09295-03394AC4; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 13:40:02 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:39:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01CB6083.6DCCC630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CB6083.6DCCC630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct, Steve. Technically it is not a closed loop system because the = Autotune is used to "adjust" the fuel map at some specific point in = time, but then is no longer part of the active real-time process during = normal operation. =20 Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: stevei@carey.asn.au=20 Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor See what you are saying Ed.=20 Its not a true closed loop system, the feedback is used only to adjust a = correction factor in the map. Steve Izett On 30/09/2010, at 8:34 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Hi Steve, I believe that is essentially the correction concept used for making = the comparison between stoichometric and the O2 signal.. However, Steve Boese's comments about the Autotune function adjusting = the fuel map with the correction factor rather than my implied = real-time adjustment of the Pulse to the injector, is the way it is = actually implementation the EC/EM system. That way the adjustments are = retained in the fuel map. Ed=20 From: stevei@carey.asn.au=20 Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Ed, I believe your description is right on.=20 So autotune is a function of feedback to the EC2 from the EM2/3's O2 = sensor. Steve Izett On 30/09/2010, at 3:06 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Al, is correct in that the EC does not directly interface with the = O2 sensor - however, because the autotune option does requires the EM2/3 = (at least I think I recall that being the case) to which the O2 sensor = is connected to, I suspect the following is a likely description of how = the autotune function works. My understanding that - the EM2 is a component of the Auto Tune = system of the EC.=20 I suspect that the EM2 has a circuit to read the O2 sensor voltage. = If the sensor is putting out around 0.450 volts (450 millivolts), = then the air/fuel ratio is close to stoichometric ratio of 14.7:1 = air/fuel. If the EC triggers the injectors and they produce a mixture = that is richer than 14.7:1 then the O2 voltage increases. This voltage = swing is probably detected by the EM2 and a mixture correction signal = sent to the EC to reduce the pulse width being sent to trigger the = injectors thereby reducing the air/fuel ratio and bringing it back to = Stoichometric. Should the O2 voltage drop below 450 millivolts = (indicating leaner that 14.7:1), that deviation is sense by the EM2 and = a correction sent to the EC to richen the mixture by increasing pulse = width of signal sent to injectors. So no EM2 - no autotune function, no Operational O2 sensor also = equals no AutoTune function.=20 But, just a SWAG on my part, Tracy may provide the correct = description if he gets back to the local Colorado Library {:>). Ed From: Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bill; The EC is not a closed loop system =96 does not use the O2 sensor = output =96 unless something has changed recently. Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bosch 11027 is the O2 sensor that Tracy recommends in the = instructions. I think the controller uses that input to maintain the = mixture where you set it. I don=92t think it is only used for setting = the map table. YMMV Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor I have the BOSCH sensor 11027 and it works fine. That=92s what I have also; and I think mine has something close to = 150 hrs and still going fine. I seldom burn avgas, so that helps. I think one needs the O2 sensor for auto tune. Yes, it does. As I understand it; with the knobs centered the EM = tunes to mid-range on the O2 sensor; roughly stoichometric. Al Rino ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:05 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bill, if it=92s a one wire sensor, then just about any of the = "universal" 1 wire O2 sensors you find in your auto store will work.=20 If multiwire (I.e. has a heater element and a separate sensor = ground wire), then you need to get one with the same number of wires. = If you get the same make O2 sensor, then the wires should be the same = color. Bosch has a wire chart which tells you which color wire is which = - this may help. I always get a Bosch unit - they might cost a few = bucks more, but they are generally good quality, available anywhere and = you can find the wire color code. Here's the wiring color code for the = "Universal" Bosch unit. Cable colour allocations for the Universal Oxygen Sensor are as = follows, sensor output signal wire =3D black, sensor heater element cables = =3D White ( Note - heater is not polarity sensitive ) Sensor signal = ground ( where used ) =3D Grey Important: The cable allocations must be assigned correctly. = Otherwise the Sensor could be destroyed Don't let them sell you a wide band O2 sensor which a novice parts = guy might try to do because they all have 5 -6 wires and might get = confused with a Narrow band O2 sensor with a heater. Ed From: Bill Schertz Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto tune/oxygen sensor Was going to do some auto tune in the air yesterday, to get to = some regions of the performance map that can't be reached on the ground. Took off and the O2 sensor indication completely disappeared from = the EM-2 display. Did one circuit of the airport and landed. Discovered that the O2 sensor had failed (physically -- the top = fell off and separated from the body). This caused me to raise the = following questions. 1. I believe that the oxygen sensor readout is only that, not used = by the EC-2 for control purposes. 2. When in auto tune, is the EM-2 looking at the sensor for = indications of which way to adjust the mixture? If not, what is the = feedback mechanism? I went to the Auto parts store for a replacement, and ran into the = problem that there are 100's of different oxygen sensors, and they need = to know what car it came from. Anyone have the specs on what this sensor = is? Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The contents of this email are confidential and intended only for the = named recipients of this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in = error, you are hereby notified that any use, reproduction, disclosure or = distribution or the information contained in this e-mail is prohibited. = Please notify the sender immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail = and any printed copies. All liability for viruses is excluded to the = fullest extent of the law. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CB6083.6DCCC630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct, Steve.  Technically it is not a = closed loop=20 system because the Autotune is used to "adjust" the fuel map at some = specific=20  point in time, but then is no longer part of the active real-time = process=20 during normal operation. 
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: stevei@carey.asn.au
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:22 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen = sensor

See what you are saying Ed.=20
Its not a true closed loop system, the feedback is used only to = adjust a=20 correction factor in the map.

Steve Izett
On 30/09/2010, at 8:34 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:
Hi Steve,
 
I believe that is essentially the=20 correction concept used for making the comparison between = stoichometric=20 and the O2 signal..
 
However, Steve Boese's comments about the = Autotune=20 function adjusting the fuel map with the correction factor =  rather than=20 my implied real-time adjustment of the Pulse to the injector,  is = the way=20 it is  actually implementation the EC/EM system.  That = way the=20 adjustments are retained in the fuel map.
 
Ed 

From: stevei@carey.asn.au
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen = sensor

Ed, I believe your description is right on.=20
So autotune is a function of feedback to the EC2 from the EM2/3's = O2=20 sensor.

Steve Izett
On 30/09/2010, at 3:06 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:
Al, is correct in that the EC does not = directly=20 interface with the O2 sensor - however, because the autotune option = does=20 requires the EM2/3 (at least I think I recall that being the = case)=20  to  which the O2 sensor is connected to, I suspect the = following=20 is a likely description of how the autotune function = works.
 
My understanding that - the EM2 is a = component of the=20 Auto Tune system of the EC. 
 
 I suspect that the EM2 has a circuit = to read the=20 O2 sensor voltage. 
 
 If the sensor is putting out around = 0.450 volts=20 (450 millivolts), then the air/fuel ratio is close to stoichometric = ratio of=20 14.7:1 air/fuel.  If the EC triggers the injectors and they = produce a=20 mixture that is richer than 14.7:1 then the O2 voltage = increases.  This=20 voltage swing is probably detected by the EM2 and a mixture = correction=20 signal sent to the EC to reduce the pulse width being sent to = trigger the=20 injectors thereby reducing the air/fuel ratio and bringing it back = to=20 Stoichometric.  Should the O2 voltage drop below 450 millivolts = (indicating leaner that 14.7:1), that deviation is sense by the EM2 = and a=20 correction sent to the EC to richen the mixture by increasing pulse = width of=20 signal sent to injectors.
 
So no EM2 - no autotune function, no = Operational=20  O2 sensor  also equals no AutoTune = function. 
 
But, just a SWAG on my part, Tracy may = provide the=20 correct description if he gets back to the local Colorado Library=20 {:>).
 
Ed
 

From: Al Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday,=20 September 29, 2010 2:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor

Bill;
 

The EC = is not a=20 closed loop system =96 does not use the O2 sensor output =96 unless = something=20 has changed recently.
 

Al
 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 8:53=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor
 

Bosch = 11027 is the=20 O2 sensor that Tracy recommends in the instructions.  I think = the=20 controller uses that input to maintain the mixture where you set = it.  I=20 don=92t think it is only used for setting the map table. =20 YMMV
 

Bill=20 B  

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al = Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 12:07=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor  

 

I have=20 the BOSCH sensor 11027 and it works fine.
That=92s what I=20 have also; and I think mine has something close to 150 hrs and still = going=20 fine.  I seldom burn avgas, so that = helps.
I think=20 one needs the O2 sensor for auto tune.
Yes, it = does.  As I understand it; with the knobs centered the EM tunes = to=20 mid-range on the O2 sensor; roughly = stoichometric.  

Al  

 

Rino
-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Ed=20 Anderson
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, September = 29, 2010=20 11:05 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor
 

Bill,=20 if it=92s a one wire sensor, then just about any of the = "universal" 1 wire=20 O2 sensors you find in your auto store will=20 work. 
 

 If multiwire = (I.e. has a=20 heater element and a separate sensor ground wire), then you need = to get=20 one with the same number of wires.  If you get the same make = O2=20 sensor, then the wires should be the same = color.
 

 =20 Bosch has a wire chart which tells you which color wire is = which  -=20 this may help.  I always get a Bosch unit - they might cost a = few=20 bucks more, but they are generally good quality, available = anywhere and=20 you can find the wire color code.  Here's the wiring color = code for=20 the "Universal" Bosch unit.
 

Cable=20 colour allocations for the Universal Oxygen Sensor are as=20 follows,

sensor=20 output signal wire =3D black, sensor heater element = cables=20 =3D

White=20 ( Note - heater is not polarity sensitive ) Sensor signal=20 ground

(=20 where used ) =3D Grey

Important:=20 The cable allocations must be assigned correctly.=20 Otherwise

the=20 Sensor could be destroyed

 

Don't=20 let them sell you a wide band O2 sensor which a novice parts guy = might try=20 to do because they all have 5 -6 wires and might get confused with = a=20 Narrow band O2 sensor with a heater.
 

Ed
 

From: Bill=20 Schertz
Sent: Wednesday, September = 29, 2010=20 9:10 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor
 

Was=20 going to do some auto tune in the air yesterday, to get to some = regions of=20 the performance map that can't be reached on the=20 ground.
 

Took=20 off and the O2 sensor indication completely disappeared from the = EM-2=20 display. Did one circuit of the airport and=20 landed.
 

Discovered that the = O2 sensor=20 had failed (physically -- the top fell off and separated from the = body).=20 This caused me to raise the following = questions.
 

1. I=20 believe that the oxygen sensor readout is only that, not used by = the EC-2=20 for control purposes.
2.=20 When in auto tune, is the EM-2 looking at the sensor for = indications of=20 which way to adjust the mixture? If not, what is the feedback=20 mechanism?
 

I went=20 to the Auto parts store for a replacement, and ran into the = problem that=20 there are 100's of different oxygen sensors, and they need to know = what=20 car it came from. Anyone have the specs on what this sensor=20 is?
 

 

Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I=20 = testing


The contents of this email = are confidential=20 and intended only for the named recipients of this e-mail. If you have = received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 reproduction, disclosure or distribution or the information contained = in this=20 e-mail is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately and then=20 delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed copies. All liability for = viruses is=20 excluded to the fullest extent of the=20 law.

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