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Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 13:20:44 -0500
From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
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To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question
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On the 2seat RV's the 'standard' fuel pickup will prime through the 
'standard' fuel selector until the tank is down to around 1/2 full (I'd 
have to do an actual test to get more precise). If the valve is mounted 
a few inches lower (& extend the selector shaft), it would prime at just 
about any level of fuel that would be sane to depart with. I'm thinking 
that if I placard for no takeoff with less than x% ('x' to be 
determined) in the main tank, I won't have an issue with unporting the 
injection pumps. That'll allow one less Facet pump in the system, 
'simplifying & adding lightness'.

Charlie


On 6/6/2010 10:05 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
> Charlie,
>    Your idea of locating the Hi pressure pumps as close to the tanks 
> mirrors my
> proposed system for my Delta..........My two 27 gal saddle tanks are 
> just behind
> the main spar bulkhead (very deep on the Delta) with plenty of room to 
> mount
> the pumps below the tanks for extremely short runs and gravity feed so 
> as to
> eliminate the need for the Facet boost pump...........Both Todd and 
> your ideas
> for regulator and return line placement have given new food for 
> thought !.........
> Kelly Troyer
> "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
> "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> *Sent:* Sun, June 6, 2010 9:37:06 AM
> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question
>
> I thought about that after I had hit 'send'. My pumps will probably be
> on the floor with a shorter run from the main tank than yours, but it
> would probably still be a good idea. If I could find a way to fit them
> in the wing root next to the main tank, that might change the
> requirement a bit. Also, I'm hoping to avoid getting any engine heat
> into the fuel that flows through the pumps. The only heating should be
> from the pumps themselves.
>
> Charlie
>
> On 6/6/2010 9:05 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:
> > Charlie,
> >
> > For what it's worth, your proposed fuel system is essentially the 
> same as I
> > am using with the exception - that I have a very small (like 1/2 pint)
> > header tank at the junction of your "T".  But, I see no reason to 
> believe
> > that you proposed set-up would not work perhaps even better - no 
> header tank
> > on the FWF to absorb engine heat.  Mine has worked for 10+ years.
> >
> > However, I would suggest that you include a facet pump between the 
> tanks and
> > your set up - probably after your selector valve - for a couple of 
> reasons.
> >
> > In the early days of my testing when I was doing power on stall 
> testing, I
> > discovered the combination of high power settings and low air flow 
> through
> > the cowl - could get my fuel in the header tank hot enough to 
> percolate -
> > never got vapor lock, but I could see the fuel pressure varying 
> considerably
> > and the engine would complain.  Turning on the facet pump apparently
> > provided sufficient pressure to stifle the percolation.
> >
> > Plus it sort of "ensures" that you have a pump that will "Pull" fuel 
> out of
> > the tanks.  I always have it on for take off and landing.
> >
> > FWIW
> >
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > Ed Anderson
> >
> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> >
> > Matthews, NC
> >
> > eanderson@carolina.rr.com <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> >
> > http://www.andersonee.com
> >
> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> >
> > http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >
> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> >
> > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net 
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>] On
> > Behalf Of Charlie England
> > Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 9:47 AM
> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question
> >
> > Hope this helps...
> >
> > On 6/6/2010 2:21 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Charlie;
> >> Hmmmnn, I gotta say a picture (or drawing) is worth a thousand words.
> >> Todd (sent on my new-fangled google phone with a really damn small
> >> keyboard)
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 2010-06-05 8:46 PM, "Charlie England"<ceengland@bellsouth.net 
> <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> >>> <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net 
> <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net>>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Todd,
> >>>
> >>> My thought is to set up the fuel path thus: fuel source through a T
> >>> into injection pumps, through filters, through combining T, through
> >>> the regulator(in cockpit), through firewall to engine. The
> >>> regulator's bypass port (in the cockpit) would be plumbed just like
> >>> yours, except no heat exchanger since the bypass fuel would never see
> >>> the heat of the engine compartment. The bypass would still T into the
> >>> supply to the injection pumps, like your system. Obviously, a
> >>> manifold pressure line would be required through the firewall into
> >>> the cockpit to the pressure regulator.
> >>>
> >>> My original plan (different injection that didn't require a return
> >>> line) was similar to your selector setup: main tanks feeding stock
> >>> van's selector, with the 3rd port on it being fed by a 2nd vans
> >>> selector to select either of the 2 aux tanks. No transfer pump would
> >>> have been required,&  no crossover valve. Failure of the primary
> >>> valve could have been a 'show stopper', but the newer valves seem to
> >>> be rock solid reliable. Going to this system using the gear type
> >>> pumps requiring a return line forced re-thinking. Using your idea to
> >>> return the bypassed fuel at the pump inlet effectively eliminates the
> >>> 'return' issue,&  tempts me to return to the original fuel selector
> >>> layout, with the addition of a Facet boost pump. The fact that the
> >>> optical sensors will work looking into the side of a fuel line (the
> >>> T), instead of needing them in the tank&  that they still give almost
> >>> a full minute's warning, is very encouraging. I'll start looking for
> >>> a convenient place to mount them.
> >>>
> >>> I hope that Tracy will chime in on how he plumbed the regulator on
> >>> his -8.
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks for the extra details.
> >>>
> >>> Charlie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 6/5/2010 12:32 PM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> >  Hi Charlie
> >>> >    Not sure I understand correctly what you mean? Can you
> >>>      sketch it out quickly? I'...
> >>>
> >>> >  *From*: Charlie England<ceengland@bellsouth.net 
> <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> >>> <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net>>
> >>> <mailto:Charlie%20England%20%3cceengland@bellsout.
> >>> <mailto:Charlie%2520England%2520%253cceengland@bellsout.>..
> >>>
> >>> >  *Subject*: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question
> >>> >  *Date*: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 08:38:09 -0...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
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> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
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