X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with SMTP id 4338176 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:06:00 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.103; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 34512 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jun 2010 15:05:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1275836726; bh=il8r/dD2C9GYoyd7BUdonfmoi8pfqv0rsfgIYaitO0M=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BCtXeIZuj1WY1UvAPn31QoG3PChpFeh5Kes9HjWLT9C4F82WNKv+oApY2o2W4aGRHKoyV+0ezZAw0u6RoTKq3yMTHDTpGGoLGTFHR727HlMaoLfcGyT8ySbM/c8NIosr9tQw+nSaxhMUkgN2UDvQyEeCptdyR7UBgd0Xxq2WIuY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=go5nTtHmYWce0A6ubFwDmO6HAlQbcK9hBrxgLOr8l/5dmX6hGSt2HSZ1/VVzwkNSp/hLaxkmASp5N3/wTRmOnOeYMnI27N3f6SnzEDoTv4CohVDeAB0xLFalwdXyThA0Xl5fOO0v0FxqaLh93nEoDPpnWRznisg117q33zNt9zI=; Message-ID: <684819.31531.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 6_PqMTIVM1miwm45_JOBFHD14F1IOart2SbayobKKYhqZLo gJCCcF2aBw2JQ3IwmOYnQ73gFntAhySd0c4aECDWRT1Rz43XwI5LyGGkt2xV BPxgpIEm3Ob6x1hUOmtDSXrQAdKdgxfhMFZKDNLe.srRDoaAAyYSL6XMcf7L rfl4kYRnXmqFW5z.21Gp2IcrvKzVSrMKPIbZ5OXIHNQ_mg59CGbzce7MbCse 4ssSqfr4tFBv.7SZ3mv2jm24tllccZKkivTJvdkmbROaLBA.g3FZjxpvJW5Q w3ZerT30AsQQJrA8dzi3O9SUl4MSQeOaRZ6CtnckEzx_h3FgO80J7lb6ZyHp cFMYZr_TdCO_9lDx15rvI Received: from [208.114.33.219] by web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 Jun 2010 08:05:26 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/397.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.103.269680 References: Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1626120358-1275836726=:31531" --0-1626120358-1275836726=:31531 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie,=0A=A0=A0 Your idea of locating the Hi pressure pumps as close to t= he tanks mirrors my=0Aproposed system for my Delta..........My=A0two 27 gal= saddle tanks are just behind=0Athe main spar bulkhead (very deep on the De= lta) with plenty of room to mount=0Athe pumps below the tanks for extremely= short runs and gravity feed so as to=0Aeliminate the need for the Facet bo= ost pump...........Both Todd and your ideas=0Afor regulator and return line= placement have given new food for thought !.........=A0=0A=A0Kelly Troyer= =0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Backplat= e/Oil Manifold =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Char= lie England =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sun, June 6, 2010 9:37:06 AM=0ASubject: [F= lyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question=0A=0AI thought about that af= ter I had hit 'send'. My pumps will probably be =0Aon the floor with a shor= ter run from the main tank than yours, but it =0Awould probably still be a = good idea. If I could find a way to fit them =0Ain the wing root next to th= e main tank, that might change the =0Arequirement a bit. Also, I'm hoping t= o avoid getting any engine heat =0Ainto the fuel that flows through the pum= ps. The only heating should be =0Afrom the pumps themselves.=0A=0ACharlie= =0A=0AOn 6/6/2010 9:05 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:=0A> Charlie,=0A>=0A> For what= it's worth, your proposed fuel system is essentially the same as I=0A> am = using with the exception - that I have a very small (like 1/2 pint)=0A> hea= der tank at the junction of your "T".=A0 But, I see no reason to believe=0A= > that you proposed set-up would not work perhaps even better - no header t= ank=0A> on the FWF to absorb engine heat.=A0 Mine has worked for 10+ years.= =0A>=0A> However, I would suggest that you include a facet pump between the= tanks and=0A> your set up - probably after your selector valve - for a cou= ple of reasons.=0A>=0A> In the early days of my testing when I was doing po= wer on stall testing, I=0A> discovered the combination of high power settin= gs and low air flow through=0A> the cowl - could get my fuel in the header = tank hot enough to percolate -=0A> never got vapor lock, but I could see th= e fuel pressure varying considerably=0A> and the engine would complain.=A0 = Turning on the facet pump apparently=0A> provided sufficient pressure to st= ifle the percolation.=0A>=0A> Plus it sort of "ensures" that you have a pum= p that will "Pull" fuel out of=0A> the tanks.=A0 I always have it on for ta= ke off and landing.=0A>=0A> FWIW=0A>=0A>=0A> Ed=0A>=0A> Ed Anderson=0A>=0A>= Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=0A>=0A> Matthews, NC=0A>=0A> eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com=0A>=0A> http://www.andersonee.com=0A>=0A> http://www.dmack.net/maz= da/index.html=0A>=0A> http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>=0A> http://members.cox.= net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=0A>=0A> http://www.rotaryaviation.co= m/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm=0A>=0A> -----Original Message-----=0A> From: Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=0A> Behalf Of C= harlie England=0A> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 9:47 AM=0A> To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft=0A> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question= =0A>=0A> Hope this helps...=0A>=0A> On 6/6/2010 2:21 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote= :=0A>=A0 =A0 =0A>> Hi Charlie;=0A>> Hmmmnn, I gotta say a picture (or drawi= ng) is worth a thousand words.=0A>> Todd (sent on my new-fangled google pho= ne with a really damn small=0A>> keyboard)=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =0A>>> On 2= 010-06-05 8:46 PM, "Charlie England">> >=A0 wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>> Hi Todd,=0A>>>=0A>>> My tho= ught is to set up the fuel path thus: fuel source through a T=0A>>> into in= jection pumps, through filters, through combining T, through=0A>>> the regu= lator(in cockpit), through firewall to engine. The=0A>>> regulator's bypass= port (in the cockpit) would be plumbed just like=0A>>> yours, except no he= at exchanger since the bypass fuel would never see=0A>>> the heat of the en= gine compartment. The bypass would still T into the=0A>>> supply to the inj= ection pumps, like your system. Obviously, a=0A>>> manifold pressure line w= ould be required through the firewall into=0A>>> the cockpit to the pressur= e regulator.=0A>>>=0A>>> My original plan (different injection that didn't = require a return=0A>>> line) was similar to your selector setup: main tanks= feeding stock=0A>>> van's selector, with the 3rd port on it being fed by a= 2nd vans=0A>>> selector to select either of the 2 aux tanks. No transfer p= ump would=0A>>> have been required,&=A0 no crossover valve. Failure of the = primary=0A>>> valve could have been a 'show stopper', but the newer valves = seem to=0A>>> be rock solid reliable. Going to this system using the gear t= ype=0A>>> pumps requiring a return line forced re-thinking. Using your idea= to=0A>>> return the bypassed fuel at the pump inlet effectively eliminates= the=0A>>> 'return' issue,&=A0 tempts me to return to the original fuel sel= ector=0A>>> layout, with the addition of a Facet boost pump. The fact that = the=0A>>> optical sensors will work looking into the side of a fuel line (t= he=0A>>> T), instead of needing them in the tank&=A0 that they still give a= lmost=0A>>> a full minute's warning, is very encouraging. I'll start lookin= g for=0A>>> a convenient place to mount them.=0A>>>=0A>>> I hope that Tracy= will chime in on how he plumbed the regulator on=0A>>> his -8.=0A>>>=0A>>>= Many thanks for the extra details.=0A>>>=0A>>> Charlie=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>= =0A>>> On 6/5/2010 12:32 PM, Todd Bartrim wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 >= =0A>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 >=A0 Hi Charlie=0A>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 >=A0 =A0 Not sure I unde= rstand correctly what you mean? Can you=0A>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 sketch it out quic= kly? I'...=0A>>>=0A>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 >=A0 *From*: Charlie England>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =0A>>>=A0 =A0 = =A0 >>=A0 =A0 =A0 ..=0A>>>=0A>>>=A0 =A0= =A0 >=A0 *Subject*: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question=0A>>>= =A0 =A0 =A0 >=A0 *Date*: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 08:38:09 -0...=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>= =0A>>> --=0A>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>> Archive and UnSub= : http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists...=0A>>>=0A>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =0A>= =0A>=0A> --=0A> Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A> Archive and UnSu= b:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A>=A0= =A0 =0A=0A=0A--=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArchive and UnS= ub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A --0-1626120358-1275836726=:31531 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Charlie,
=0A
   Your = idea of locating the Hi pressure pumps as close to the tanks mirrors my=0A
proposed system for my Delta..........My two 27 gal saddle t= anks are just behind
=0A
the main spar bulkhead (very deep on the = Delta) with plenty of room to mount
=0A
the pumps below the tanks = for extremely short runs and gravity feed so as to
=0A
eliminate t= he need for the Facet boost pump...........Both Todd and your ideas
= =0A
for regulator and return line placement have given new food for tho= ught !......... 
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTAR= Y Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A
=
=0A

=0A
=0A=0AFrom: Charlie = England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Sun, June 6= , 2010 9:37:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps question

I thought= about that after I had hit 'send'. My pumps will probably be
on the fl= oor with a shorter run from the main tank than yours, but it
would prob= ably still be a good idea. If I could find a way to fit them
in the win= g root next to the main tank, that might change the
requirement a bit. = Also, I'm hoping to avoid getting any engine heat
into the fuel that fl= ows through the pumps. The only heating should be
from the pumps themse= lves.

Charlie

On 6/6/2010 9:05 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:
> Charlie,
>
> For what it's worth, your proposed fuel system is= essentially the same as I
> am using with the exception - that I hav= e a very small (like 1/2 pint)
> header tank at the junction of your = "T".  But, I see no reason to believe
> that you proposed set-up= would not work perhaps even better - no header tank
> on the FWF to = absorb engine heat.  Mine has worked for 10+ years.
>
> Ho= wever, I would suggest that you include a facet pump between the tanks and<= BR>> your set up - probably after your selector valve - for a couple of = reasons.
>
> In the early days of my testing when I was doing p= ower on stall testing, I
> discovered the combination of high power s= ettings and low air flow through
> the cowl - could get my fuel in th= e header tank hot enough to percolate -
> never got vapor lock, but I= could see the fuel pressure varying considerably
> and the engine would complain.  Turning on the facet pump apparently
> = provided sufficient pressure to stifle the percolation.
>
> Plu= s it sort of "ensures" that you have a pump that will "Pull" fuel out of> the tanks.  I always have it on for take off and landing.
>= ;
> FWIW
>
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
&g= t;
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>=
> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
>
> http:= //www.andersonee.com
>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= BR>>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> http://members.co= x.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>
> http://www.rotarya= viation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>
> -----Original Message----= -
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
> Behalf Of Char= lie England
> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 9:47 AM
> To: Rotary = motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: high/low pressure pumps= question
>
> Hope this helps...
>
> On 6/6/2010 2:= 21 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
>   
>> Hi Charlie;>> Hmmmnn, I gotta say a picture (or drawing) is worth a thousand wo= rds.
>> Todd (sent on my new-fangled google phone with a really da= mn small
>> keyboard)
>>
>>      =
>>> On 2010-06-05 8:46 PM, "Charlie England"<cee= ngland@bellsouth.net
>>> <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.net>= >  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Todd,
>>><= BR>>>> My thought is to set up the fuel path thus: fuel source thr= ough a T
>>> into injection pumps, through filters, through com= bining T, through
>>> the regulator(in cockpit), through firewa= ll to engine. The
>>> regulator's bypass port (in the cockpit) = would be plumbed just like
>>> yours, except no heat exchanger = since the bypass fuel would never see
>>> the heat of the engin= e compartment. The bypass would still T into the
>>> supply to = the injection pumps, like your system. Obviously, a
>>> manifol= d pressure line would be required through the firewall into
>>>= the cockpit to the pressure regulator.
>>>
>>> My = original plan (different injection that didn't require a return
>>> line) was similar to your selector setup: main tank= s feeding stock
>>> van's selector, with the 3rd port on it bei= ng fed by a 2nd vans
>>> selector to select either of the 2 aux= tanks. No transfer pump would
>>> have been required,&&nbs= p; no crossover valve. Failure of the primary
>>> valve could h= ave been a 'show stopper', but the newer valves seem to
>>> be = rock solid reliable. Going to this system using the gear type
>>&g= t; pumps requiring a return line forced re-thinking. Using your idea to
= >>> return the bypassed fuel at the pump inlet effectively elimina= tes the
>>> 'return' issue,&  tempts me to return to t= he original fuel selector
>>> layout, with the addition of a Fa= cet boost pump. The fact that the
>>> optical sensors will work= looking into the side of a fuel line (the
>>> T), instead of needing them in the tank&  that they still give almost=
>>> a full minute's warning, is very encouraging. I'll start l= ooking for
>>> a convenient place to mount them.
>>>= ;
>>> I hope that Tracy will chime in on how he plumbed the reg= ulator on
>>> his -8.
>>>
>>> Many than= ks for the extra details.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>&g= t;>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/5/2010 12:32 PM= , Todd Bartrim wrote:
>>>
>>>      &= gt;
>>>      >  Hi Charlie
>>&g= t;      >    Not sure I understand correctly wh= at you mean? Can you
>>>      sketch it out quic= kly? I'...
>>>
>>>      >  *= From*: Charlie England<ceengland@bellsouth.net
= >>>      <mailto:ceengland@bellsouth.= net>
>>>      <mailto:Charlie%20Englan= d%20%3cceengland@bellsout.
>>>      <mailto:C= harlie%2520England%2520%253cceengland@bellsout.>..
>>>
&g= t;>>      >  *Subject*: [FlyRotary] Re: high/l= ow pressure pumps question
>>>      >  *= Date*: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 08:38:09 -0...
>>>
>>>
&= gt;>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&g= t;> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists...
>= >>
>>>       
>
>
>= ; --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:  http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
> =  


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