X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4328771 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 May 2010 20:09:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D302BF828BEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_"; type="multipart/alternative" Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:05:41 +0000 From: Chris Barber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D302BF828BE@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) byFCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) with mapi; Thu, 27 May2010 19:08:54 -0500 References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] a/R ratio : [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP revisited Thread-Index: AQHK/fjaEwP0RAoaF06Y0dZgky+2wJJl9x6p Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] a/R ratio : [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP revisited To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Modus-SURBL: =OK X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: --_004_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D302BF828BEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D302BF828BEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_" --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D302BF828BEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no idea where I pulled that from Ed.....likely just out of my.....ou= t of the air. Hmmmm, I guess a blown rotary is a happy rotary. Since my plane is female ... not sure........oh, never mind. :-\ Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] a/R ratio : [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP revisited Ok, Chris, If you are going to =93blow=94 your rotary, ya gotta use the correct termin= ology {:>). The correct terminology is the a/R ratio or =93 a R ratio=94 r= ather than =93aspect ratio =96 not bad=94 which is actually the ratio of t= he exhaust area of the turbine outlet to the radius of the center of that a= rea from the turbine shaft. (see drawing below) As you might imagine the more =93a=94 or area of your turbine exhaust compa= red to the radius of its blades the more exhaust gas can =93escape=94 aroun= d the blades without imparting its full force. So with more =93a=94 it tak= es more exhaust gas volume to drive the blades to the same rpm. For a spor= ts car feel, a small a/R means the smaller area forces the exhaust gas to i= nteract more with the blades and gives you more Zoom at lower engine speeds= . Whereas for aircraft use you generally want more power at higher rpm (no= need at lower rpm {:>)) therefore normally an a/R of around 1.0 or close t= o it is desired. Depends on a lot of factors, but that=92s it in a nutshe= ll. Turbocharger Area Ratio A/R The other consideration is the A/R. It determines when the turbine starts t= o spool. The turbine housing A/R is the cross sectional area of the turbine= housing divided by the distance from the center of that cross section to t= he center of the wheel. This makes sense if you look at the graphic. [Turbocharger A/R (Area Ratio)] If you take for example, the area in A1 and divide it by R1, you will have = found the A/R for this turbine housing. Each cross section and radius have = the same proportions so the A/R will be found by using any cross section/ra= dius. Common turbine housing A/R's are .58, .69, .81, .84, .96 and 1.00. The turb= ine will start to spool sooner with a .58 A/R, and later with a 1.00 A/R. L= ag will be a problem if the A/R is too large, but if it's too small, the tu= rbo will run out of steam and be nothing more than a restriction. If It works fine for John, it should work fine for you. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Chris Barber Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:27 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP revisited When I ordered my prop from IVO I pretty much had them send me exactly what= John had. He actually said..."you want what John Slade has?" At the time= , IIRC, it was a 68" at the time so that is what I believe I currently have= . I too have the 2.17 redrive. I hav yet to order the module from IVO for it= to regulate RPM. May do so soon. John, I think you and I have the same aspect ratio of 96 (?). My first start wit= h the turbo was with a six pound spring but on advice of a trusted friend w= ho has more experience, I replaced it with a three pound spring to start ou= t with. It was the three pound spring that I ran yesterday. We are thinki= ng that minor boost should be a better starting point and reduce potential = problems. Should we want more later and determine it is prudent, we can inc= rease it. The "Performance" wastegate comes with various springs that can = be used individually or in combination from as low as 1.5 lbs upt to 25 lbs= + (I believe). The wastegate is located behind the turbo. See the attached photo. Since = this shot was taken about two weeks ago, I have replaced the blue oil line = with a stainless one with a 90 degree fitting. I have also fabricated and = installed an additional weight support to bear some of the load off of the = turbo manifold. I will post more pictures in separate emails so not go over size limits. Chris Barber ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = John Slade [jslade@canardaviation.com] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:40 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP revisited Hi Kelly, My IVO is 66 (I found 68 gave too little ground clearance), 3 blade and the= higher pitch. Yes, it's a 2.17. Regards, John Kelly Troyer wrote: John , What is your "IVO" diameter, number of blades and are your blades the= 30 to 90 or 45 to105 degree pitch ? If I remember correctly you have the 2.17 to 1 RD1B gearbox................. Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold ________________________________ From: John Slade To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 8:44:43 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP reviisted....now that I know more about = it all...kinda. Hi Ed, Chris, That all makes sense, but I can add something from experience with the IVO = prop - The minimum pitch setting seems to optimum for take-off power. When = I changed from a big fixed pitch prop to an IVO at minimum pitch the differ= ence in acceleration was very marked. I have never taken off with the pitch= at a higher setting than minimum, so I can't attest to the effect, but if = you forget to put the pitch on full fine on the downwind, a go-around is mu= ch less doable. Something else about the IVO that might help, Chris, is that when you throt= tle back on final the airplane will want to slow down quite quickly. This i= s somewhat unexpected if you're used to a fixed pitch prop that tends to ma= ke the airplane float on final. The combination of fine pitch at idle, both= rudders and the landing brake make a Cozy (or Velocity I would think) come= down like an elevator. One way to check that you have enough power would be to measure how much ru= nway you use to reach, say, 70kts. If it's more than 2000' I'd say you're u= nder powered. With a turbo and an IVO the acceleration should feel like a g= ood sports car, and the increase from 70 kts to flying speed will only take= a few seconds. My 2c. John to Ed Anderson wrote: No easy answer =96 to all the nuances of producing power, Chris. 200 HP is a possibility depending on lots of factors (like your total induc= tion system set up, however, I believe that 180 HP is more in line with the= likely maximum on the older 13B. The Renesis a bit more/ Fuel flow is as much an indication of power as anything short of a dyno and= /or extensive aircraft performance numbers. RPM (in my opinion) has too many variables =96 like I have a 74x88 prop w= ith a 2.85:1 gearbox and can turn 6000-6200 rpm static =96 does that mean = I am making more or less HP than you at 6200 rpm at 35=94 Hg. It all depen= ds on what prop load each of our engines are seeing at that rpm. Generally= as a rough rule of thumb you can figure 10 hp per gallon/hour of fuel flow= . So it you have a fuel flow of 16 gallon/hour then your engine could be p= roducing around 160 HP. 18 GPH =3D 180 HP, etc. Now your power won=92t be= more than that, but it could be less. The rotary can flow considerably mo= re fuel without making useful power than a piston engine, but it is a usefu= l rule of thumb. I street ported my 91 Turbo block myself using a Mazdatrix street port temp= late. I went through 5 intake designs and several muffler experiments befo= re finding one that appear to give me the power I wanted. On a cold mornin= g with OAT < 50F, I can get up to 6200 rpm and 18-20 GPH fuel flow with the= 74x88 prop. So I feel I have my set up just about as good as its going to= get =96 short of a forced induction system. With your prop set at max fine pitch, you have reduced the prop load on yo= ur engine to a minimum =96 that permits your rpm to be at a maximum =96 but= , that does NOT mean you are producing the power and more importantly - the= thrust needed for safe flight. Don=92t be mislead by rpm. As an extreme example to make my point, Withou= t a prop (almost no load) my engine will turn 5500 rpm at idle throttle set= ting =96 but I am only flowing something like 1.5 =96 2 GPH which means pro= ducing something like 15-20 HP even though the rpm without prop is higher t= han my static was when I had my old 68x72 with a 2.17:1 gear box. So even= though the rpm is the same or slightly greater, the engine not making any = where near the 150-160 HP I made with the prop on at the same rpm. Fuel f= low is not a perfect indicator but much more useful than RPM alone in estim= ating your power particularly with a variable pitch prop. This is important, Chris. Years ago, there was a long EZ builder who had a= non-rotary auto engine who unfortunately ended his first flight in a fatal= crash into a cactus plant. He understood the electronics just fine, but d= id not understand the relationship between rpm and thrust. He set his adju= stable pitch prop for maximum RPM =96 which mean minimum prop load, which i= n his case mean minimum thrust. He managed to get airborne with this limit= ed thrust, but could not apparently climb out of ground effect with the fli= ght ending on impact with a cactus. For example, you would get your highest rpm with a prop that absolutely no= pitch which would produce minimum load on the engine =96 however, I think = you would agree there would not be much =93push/Pull=94 by such a prop set = up. With a variable pitch prop, you need to find the optimum balance betwe= en rpm and thrust. Too much rpm could indicate too little pitch (and too l= ittle thrust), too low rpm could indicate too much pitch (and too little th= rust) =96 neither condition gives you maximum thrust. The only way I can think of to find that optimum balance between rpm and th= rust is to attach your airframe through a scale to an anchor. Then measure= the pull on the scale at various rpm and prop pitch settings. This should= help you find where combination of engine rpm and prop pitch provides maxi= mum thrust (at least maximum static thrust =96 which is a good start). Per= haps someone else can offer a better and easier method. Yes, you should be= able to get a feel during taxi test =96 although some folks frown on the i= dea of high-speed taxi test. Theoretically you could use an accelerometer,= some accurate speed measurements the weight of your aircraft and calculat= e the effective HP =96 that has been done with automobiles. In cases were folks are using fixed pitch props with parameters similar to= those used by others, you can make a comparison and get a rough feel for e= ngine performance based on RPM. Unfortunately, with a variable pitch prop = making such comparisons is more difficult and questionable. Now if you can= find someone using the same variable pitch prop you are using and compare = your rpm and prop settings, that is certainly something worth checking into= . Just continue to ask these kinds of questions and to think about the issues= in producing power and thrust =96 you=92ll be ready. Ed . Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Chris Barber Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:51 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary HP reviisted....now that I know more about it a= ll...kinda. I know this must have been discussed, but perhaps more in passing or in som= e of Tracy 's literature (now kinda dated, especially with some of the stri= des he continues to make), but what is the conventional wisdom as to rotary= horsepower? I know when I first started looking into it, oh many years ag= o, it seemed the impression I got was that you could pretty easily achieve = 200 hp, however, that is now a bit lower. Some of the tricks to get the hi= gher HP was mild and medium porting, bridge, "J" and "P" porting. Then the= re was the option of turbo...the one, in combination with a medium street p= ort, I chose. What say Ye? When started today, mine was turning about 6200 rpm at 35 MP (with a 3 lb s= pring in the wastegate).....it surged forward against the chocks and breaks= . IVO prop full fine. Nice feel of power even if it likes to heat up fast = in 90 degree weather like this. Also, I think this was discussed before too, when I go WOT my engine develo= ps up to about 6250 rpm, but then drops a couple/few hundred rpm to usually= just under 6000....sometimes just above. Thoughts? Ed, (perhaps Al)it se= ems you may have chimed in before. Regrettably, when I search the archives= I tend to get frustrated due to thread drift. I heard a lot about porting when I was initially investigating all this and= I chose to use a medium street port. I let Mazdatrix do the work. That b= eing said, I have read all but nothing on others porting their engines (oth= er than a LOT from PL on P ports). Since standard porting does not reporte= dly effect reliability, only, potentially low low idle (I can idle as low a= s about 1300 rpm when warm smoothly) why is it not discussed and/or utilize= d more? Just curious guys/gals. Discuss All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com<= mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Emailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight Always loved the lines of a Tailwind =96 in fact, I have the plans and lice= nse to build a W-10 sitting on my book shelf. Unfortunately, I doubt I=92l= l ever get around to it. Ok with thermostat in the system holding it at 190F =96 we really won=92t k= now how much reserve capacity you have in your cooling system until the pow= er goes up. I agree with George, 200HP out of an N/A 13B is really pushing it. I think= 180HP is a more realistic expectation =96 but, hey you never know. It ama= zing how power goes up when things come together. Enjoy and fly safe. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of John Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:36 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Emailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight My most humble thank you to flyrotary and all you fine folks that have help= ed bring my project to flight. Ed and many others whom I won't try to name= here because I would miss many. The plane is a Wittman Tailwind W-10, emp= ty wt. is 981 and it is a tri-gear, Wt. is within 6 #'s of similar trikes = w/ 0-320 engines. I have the thermostat in the engine because most of the = year it is not very hot, if we get 50 days with the temperature over 70, we= have had a hot summer, not a lot of beach bunny activity. 7-1 I'll be 74 = and have realized my dream, now it's all gravy. Again, thanks guys!! John= D Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachment= s: 3 view w-10 003 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D302BF828BEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have no idea where I pulled that from Ed.....likely just out of my..= ...out of the air.
 
Hmmmm, I guess a blown rotary is a happy rotary.
 
Since my plane is female ... not sure........oh, never mind. :-\
 
Chris
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] a/R ratio : [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary HP revisited=

Ok, Chris,

&= nbsp;

If you are goin= g to =93blow=94 your rotary, ya gotta use the correct terminology {:>).&= nbsp; The correct terminology is the a/R ratio or =93 a R ratio=94 rather than =93aspect ratio =96 not bad=94  which is actua= lly the ratio of the exhaust area of the turbine outlet to the radius of th= e center of that area from the turbine shaft. (see drawing below)

&= nbsp;

As you might im= agine the more =93a=94 or area of your turbine exhaust compared to the radi= us of its blades the more exhaust gas can =93escape=94 around the blades without imparting its full force.  So with more =93= a=94 it takes more exhaust gas volume to drive the blades to the same rpm.&= nbsp; For a sports car feel, a small a/R means the smaller area forces the = exhaust gas to interact more with the blades and gives you more Zoom at lower engine speeds.  Whereas for aircraft use= you generally want more power at higher rpm (no need at lower rpm {:>))= therefore normally an a/R of around 1.0 or close to it is desired.  D= epends on a lot of factors, but that=92s it in  a nutshell.

Turbocharger Area Ratio=

A/R
The other consideration is the A/R. It determines when the turbine starts t= o spool. The turbine housing A/R is the cross sectional area of the turbine= housing divided by the distance from the center of that cross section to t= he center of the wheel. This makes sense if you look at the graphic.
3D"Turbocharger <= /span>
If you take for example, the area in A1 and divide it by R1, you will have = found the A/R for this turbine housing. Each cross section and radius have = the same proportions so the A/R will be found by using any cross section/ra= dius.

Common turbine housing A/R's are .58, .69, .81, .84, .96 and 1.00. The turb= ine will start to spool sooner with a .58 A/R, and later with a 1.00 A/R. L= ag will be a problem if the A/R is too large, but if it's too small, the tu= rbo will run out of steam and be nothing more than a restriction.


&= nbsp;

If It works fin= e  for John, it should work fine for you.

&= nbsp;

Ed

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Thursday, May 27, 201= 0 6:27 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ro= tary HP revisited

 

When I orde= red my prop from IVO I pretty much had them send me exactly what John = had.  He actually said..."you want what John Slade has?"  At the time, IIRC, it was a 68" at the time so that = is what I believe I currently have.

 

I too have = the 2.17 redrive.  I hav yet to order the module from IVO fo= r it to regulate RPM.  May do so soon.

 

John,

 

I think you= and I have the same aspect ratio of 96 (?).  My first start with the = turbo was with a six pound spring but on advice of a trusted friend who has more experience, I replaced it with a three po= und spring to start out with.  It was the three pound spring that I ra= n yesterday.  We are thinking that minor boost should be a better star= ting point and reduce potential problems. Should we want more later and determine it is prudent, we can increase it.=   The "Performance" wastegate comes with various spring= s that can be used individually or in combination from as low as 1.5 lbs&nb= sp;upt to 25 lbs + (I believe).

 

The wa= stegate is located behind the turbo.  See the attached photo.  Si= nce this shot was taken about two weeks ago, I have replaced the blue oil line with a stainless one with a 90 degree fitting.  I h= ave also fabricated and installed an additional weight support to bear some= of the load off of the turbo manifold.

 

I will post= more pictures in separate emails so not go over size limits.

 

Chris Barbe= r

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of John = Slade [jslade@canardaviation.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 201= 0 9:40 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ro= tary HP revisited

Hi Kelly,
My IVO is 66 (I found 68 gave too little ground clearance), 3 blade and the= higher pitch.
Yes, it's a 2.17.
Regards,
John

Kelly Troyer wrote:

John ,

   &nbs= p;  What is your "IVO" diameter, number of blades = and are your blades the 30 to 90 or 45 to105 degree pitch ? If I

remember correctly you= have the 2.17 to 1 RD1B gearbox................. 
 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

 

= From: John Slade = <jslade@canardaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 8:4= 4:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ro= tary HP reviisted....now that I know more about it all...kinda.

Hi Ed, Chris,
That all makes sense, but I can add something from experience with the IVO = prop - The minimum pitch setting seems to optimum for take-off power. When = I changed from a big fixed pitch prop to an IVO at minimum pitch the differ= ence in acceleration was very marked. I have never taken off with the pitch at a higher setting than minimum, so= I can't attest to the effect, but if you forget to put the pitch on full f= ine on the downwind, a go-around is much less doable.

Something else about the IVO that might help, Chris, is that when you throt= tle back on final the airplane will want to slow down quite quickly. This i= s somewhat unexpected if you're used to a fixed pitch prop that tends to ma= ke the airplane float on final. The combination of fine pitch at idle, both rudders and the landing brake = make a Cozy (or Velocity I would think) come down like an elevator.

One way to check that you have enough power would be to measure how much ru= nway you use to reach, say, 70kts. If it's more than 2000' I'd say you're u= nder powered. With a turbo and an IVO the acceleration should feel like a g= ood sports car, and the increase from 70 kts to flying speed will only take a few seconds.
My 2c.
John

to Ed Anderson wrote:

No easy answer = =96 to all the nuances of producing power, Chris.

 

200 HP is a pos= sibility depending on lots of factors (like your total induction system set= up, however, I believe that 180 HP is more in line with the likely maximum on the older 13B.  The Renesis a bit = more/

 

Fuel flow is as= much an indication of power as anything short of a dyno and/or extensive a= ircraft performance numbers.

 

 RPM (in m= y opinion)  has too many variables =96 like I have a 74x88 prop with a= 2.85:1 gearbox  and can turn 6000-6200 rpm static =96 does that mean I am making more or less HP than you at 6200 rpm at 35=94 Hg.&nb= sp; It all depends on what prop load each of our engines are seeing at that= rpm.  Generally as a rough rule of thumb you can= figure 10 hp per gallon/hour of fuel flow.  So it you have a fuel flo= w of 16 gallon/hour then your engine could be producing around 160 HP. = ; 18 GPH =3D 180 HP, etc.  Now your power won=92t be more than that, but it could be less.  The rotary can flow conside= rably more fuel without making useful power than a piston engine, but it is= a useful rule of thumb.

 

I street ported= my 91 Turbo block myself using a Mazdatrix street port template.  I w= ent through 5 intake designs and several muffler experiments before finding one that appear to give me the power I wanted.&= nbsp; On a cold morning with OAT < 50F, I can get up to 6200 rpm and 18-= 20 GPH fuel flow with the 74x88 prop.  So I feel I have my set up just= about as good as its going to get =96 short of a forced induction system.

 

With your prop = set at max  fine pitch, you have reduced the prop load on your engine = to a minimum =96 that permits your rpm to be at a maximum =96 but, that does NOT= mean you are producing the power and more importantly - the thrust needed for safe flig= ht.=

 

 Don=92t b= e mislead by rpm.  As an extreme example to make my point, Without a prop (almost no l= oad) my engine will turn 5500 rpm at idle throttle setting =96 but I am onl= y flowing something like 1.5 =96 2 GPH which means producing something like= 15-20 HP even though the rpm without prop is higher than my static was when I had my old 68x72 with a 2.17:1 ge= ar box.   So even though the rpm is the same or slightly greater,= the engine not making any where near the  150-160 HP I made with the = prop on at the same rpm.  Fuel flow is not a perfect indicator but much more useful than RPM alone in estimating your power par= ticularly with a variable pitch prop.

 

This is importa= nt, Chris.  Years ago, there was a long EZ builder who had a non-rotar= y auto engine who unfortunately ended his first flight in a fatal crash into a cactus plant.  He understood the elect= ronics just fine, but did not understand the relationship between rpm and t= hrust.  He set his adjustable pitch prop for maximum RPM =96 which mean = minimum prop load, which in= his case mean minimum thrust.  He ma= naged to get airborne with this limited thrust, but could not apparently cl= imb out of ground effect with the flight ending on impact with a cactus.

 

 For examp= le, you would get your highest rpm with a prop that absolutely no pitch whi= ch would produce minimum load on the engine =96 however, I think you would agree there would not be much =93push/Pull=94 by such a = prop set up.  With a variable pitch prop, you need to find the optimum= balance between rpm and thrust.  Too much rpm could indicate too litt= le pitch (and too little thrust), too low rpm could indicate too much pitch (and too little thrust) =96 neither conditio= n gives you maximum thrust. 

 

The only way I = can think of to find that optimum balance between rpm and thrust is to atta= ch your airframe through a scale to an anchor.  Then measure the pull on the scale at various rpm and prop pitch settings.=   This should help you find where combination of engine rpm and prop p= itch provides maximum thrust (at least maximum static thrust =96 which is a= good start).  Perhaps someone else can offer a better and easier method.  Yes, you should be able to get a f= eel during taxi test =96 although some folks frown on the idea of high-spee= d taxi test.  Theoretically you could use an accelerometer, some accur= ate speed measurements the weight of  your aircraft and calculate the effective HP =96 that has been done with automobiles.

 

In cases were f= olks are using fixed pitch props  with parameters similar to those use= d by others, you can make a comparison and get a rough feel for engine performance based on RPM.  Unfortunately, wit= h a variable pitch prop making such comparisons is more difficult and quest= ionable.  Now if you can find someone using the same variable pitch pr= op you are using and compare your rpm and prop settings, that is certainly something worth checking into.

 

Just continue t= o ask these kinds of questions and to think about the issues in producing p= ower and thrust =96 you=92ll be ready.<= span style=3D"COLOR: black">

 

Ed

 

. 

 

= From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 20= 10 9:51 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Rotary= HP reviisted....now that I know more about it all...kinda.

 

I know this= must have been discussed, but perhaps more in passing or in some of Tracy = 's literature (now kinda dated, especially with some of the strides he continues to make), but what is the convention= al wisdom as to rotary horsepower?  I know when I first started lookin= g into it, oh many years ago, it seemed the impression I got was that you c= ould pretty easily achieve 200 hp, however, that is now a bit lower.  Some of the tricks to get the higher HP was= mild and medium porting, bridge, "J" and "P" porting.&= nbsp; Then there was the option of turbo...the one, in combination with a m= edium street port, I chose.

 

What say Ye= ?

 

When starte= d today, mine was turning about 6200 rpm at 35 MP (with a 3 lb spring in th= e wastegate).....it surged forward against the chocks and breaks.  IVO prop full fine. Nice feel of power e= ven if it likes to heat up fast in 90 degree weather like this.

 

Also, I thi= nk this was discussed before too, when I go WOT my engine develop= s up to about 6250 rpm, but then drops a couple/few hundred rpm to usually just under 6000....sometimes just above.  Thou= ghts?  Ed, (perhaps Al)it seems you may have chimed in before.  R= egrettably, when I search the archives I tend to get frustrated due to= thread drift.

 

I heard a l= ot about porting when I was initially investigating all this and I chose to= use a medium street port.  I let Mazdatrix do the work.  That being said, I have read all but nothing on others = porting their engines (other than a LOT from PL on P ports).  Since st= andard porting does not reportedly effect reliability, only, potentially lo= w low idle (I can idle as low as about 1300 rpm when warm smoothly) why is it not discussed and/or utilized more?<= /p>

 

Just curiou= s guys/gals.  Discuss <g>

 

All the bes= t,<= /font>

 

Chris Barbe= r

Houston, GS= OT<= /font>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson= [eanderson@= carolina.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 20= 10 5:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Em= ailing: 3 view w-10 003, first flight

Always loved th= e lines of a Tailwind =96 in fact, I have the plans and license to build a = W-10 sitting on my book shelf.  Unfortunately, I doubt I=92ll ever get around to it.<= span style=3D"COLOR: black">

 

Ok with thermos= tat in the system holding it at 190F =96 we really won=92t know how much re= serve capacity you have in your cooling system until the power goes up.

 

I agree with Ge= orge, 200HP out of an N/A 13B is really pushing it.  I think 180HP is = a more realistic expectation =96 but, hey you never know.  It amazing how power goes up when things come together.=

 

Enjoy and fly s= afe.

= From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 20= 10 2:36 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Emaili= ng: 3 view w-10 003, first flight

 

My most humbl= e thank you to flyrotary and all you fine folks that have helped bring=  my project to flight.  Ed and many others whom I won't try to name here because I would miss many.  The plane is a W= ittman Tailwind W-10, empty wt. is 981 and it is a tri-gear,  Wt. is w= ithin 6 #'s of similar trikes w/ 0-320 engines.  I have the thermostat= in the engine because most of the year it is not very hot, if we get 50 days with the temperature over 70, we have had a ho= t summer, not a lot of beach bunny activity.  7-1 I'll be 74 and have = realized my dream, now it's all gravy.  Again, thanks guys!!  Joh= nD<= /font>

Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link att= achments:
3 view w-10 003

  

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Archive and UnSub:   =
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