X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4323111 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 22 May 2010 22:48:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100523024727.TMYE20234.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sat, 22 May 2010 22:47:27 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([174.66.168.165]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id Lqov1e0013aSypJ04qovQq; Sat, 22 May 2010 22:48:56 -0400 X-VR-Score: 70.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=J9nKiAzC1i4Zu+W6sBS6yxThnclaloco8GN1DV7uelw= c=1 sm=1 a=mI6YO6ZdSLUA:10 a=QUPZLcLVOz1HnoVFXOM4wA==:17 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=pcLIrrrKAAAA:8 a=qXOke6fr-5dIYp7Acr4A:9 a=nXjr7LOEhw3QVUAuyxwA:7 a=DQeZOwF99XiMBVxhNxC1Dr0SF4IA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=ftFGBYpk1mUA:10 a=aRyX-D1RCW8-FAGv:21 a=UzRkBYXtSDnGsjc5:21 a=xvmbgl_YfcKzeJ9L9YwA:9 a=7xQOE5mcgvcGIgoMI9QA:7 a=YYfuvs8aSVYUmGbwD6OmiO60jIYA:4 a=jsGGQ-O41MMUR9R1:21 a=MxvRAhtu2gOC_cLI:21 a=QUPZLcLVOz1HnoVFXOM4wA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <357F9F883CA844478B855C5091578739@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: injectors Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:47:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01CAF9E7.94A51990" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01CAF9E7.94A51990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I beat all 3 of you to the punch. I commented many months ago when John = described this system that it sounded like trouble to me. It is possible = to have too much redundancy. Of course at this point that isnt too = helpful. Not too sure I understand the configuration. Is the carb completely = redundant, or does the carb also serve as the throttle body when running = in EFI mode? If the carb is completely redundant I'd remove it and = install a block off plate until the EFI system is dialed in. If not, I'd = disconnect the fuel supply from the carb, ensure all the fuel is drained = from the float bowl so it functions purely as a throttle body, and again = focus on getting the engine running correctly in pure EFI mode before = re-enabling the carb. Mike Wills From: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injectors Gee, Steve and Kelly - if I had know we were all going to suggest the = same thing, I could have save myself the effort {:>). But, it is = frequently the case that a problem may appear to be associated with one = system and the problem actually lie with a different system.=20 =20 I remember on my last glide into Selma, AL from 7 miles out - thinking = I had a fuel problem because the injectors did not appear to be = injecting fuel properly. Well, it was a fuel problem but it was due to = my (unnoticed) failing electrical system which was down to such a low = voltage the EC2 could not operate the injectors properly. Long story = and won't repeat it here - but indicates that 'fixation" on what you = believe may be the problem subsystem may blind you to the actual source = of the problem. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Steven W. Boese Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:39 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injectors =20 John, =20 If you can hear each injector click, then it is unlikely that one of = them is hanging. This is particularly likely if the sound has a slight = ring to it. A questionable injector may sound like more of a dull = thump. =20 I second Kelly's suggestion. If you haven't already done this, can you = shut off the fuel supply to the carburator with the injectors disabled = and wait until the engine dies of fuel starvation? Then try starting = the engine with the fuel supply only enabled to the injectors and not = the carburator. =20 Steve Boese RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net] Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injectors John, This may be a stretch but could you be pulling residual fuel from = the Weber float bowl when starting on the injectors causing the flooding = ??.............=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: John To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 4:31:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] injectors Well I spent the afternoon testing the computer system and after = checking the grounds and the power to the injectors, I ran the engine up = to 180 degrees, stopped for a glass of tea and went back out to the shed = and started the engine, flooding, pulled the fuse quick so as to not = flood the engine. I have the upgrade's so I clipped the stethoscope to = each injector and ran the test mode for the injectors and each on was = clicking, so I tried a restart with the fuse pulled and the engine = started. I unplugged all the injectors and the engine started, so I = guess the new set isn't working any better than the rebuilds I bought = from Bruce T. Is there a way to test those injectors to tell which may = be hanging open. I have two cycle oil and MM oil in the fuel, so every = thing should be well lubed, I did this when I was having a condition = with the rotor lube pump. I think I'll go out this evening after it = cools down and see if will still run with the injectors unplugged. I'll = have to wait till Tracy gets home to find out if it's Okay to run with = the Weber with the fuel side of the computer turned off. JohnD....Thank = you for your help! =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01CAF9E7.94A51990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I beat all 3 of you to the punch. I commented = many=20 months ago when John described this system that it sounded like trouble = to me.=20 It is possible to have too much redundancy. Of course at this point = that=20 isnt too helpful.
 
Not too sure I understand the configuration. = Is the carb=20 completely redundant, or does the carb also serve as the throttle body = when=20 running in EFI mode? If the carb is completely redundant I'd remove it = and=20 install a block off plate until the EFI system is dialed in. If not, I'd = disconnect the fuel supply from the carb, ensure all the fuel is drained = from=20 the float bowl so it functions purely as a throttle body, and again = focus on=20 getting the engine running correctly in pure EFI mode before re-enabling = the=20 carb.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injectors

Gee, Steve = and Kelly =96=20 if I had know we were all going to suggest the same thing, I could have = save=20 myself the effort {:>).  But, it is frequently the case that a = problem=20 may appear to be associated with one system and the problem actually lie = with a=20 different system.

 

 I = remember on my=20 last glide into Selma, AL from 7 = miles out =96=20 thinking I had a fuel problem because the injectors did not appear to be = injecting fuel properly.  Well, it was a fuel problem but it was = due to my=20 (unnoticed) failing electrical system which was down to such a low = voltage the=20 EC2 could not operate the injectors properly.  Long story and = won=92t repeat=20 it here =96 but indicates that =91fixation=94 on what you believe may be = the problem=20 subsystem may blind you to the actual source of the=20 problem.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW=20 Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /FONT>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Steven W. Boese
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:39 = PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 injectors

 

John,

 

If you can = hear each=20 injector click, then it is unlikely that one of them is hanging.  = This is=20 particularly likely if the sound has a slight ring to it. =20 A questionable injector may sound like more of a dull=20 thump.

 

I second = Kelly's=20 suggestion.  If you haven't already done this, can you shut off the = fuel=20 supply to the carburator with the injectors disabled and wait until the = engine=20 dies of fuel starvation?  Then try starting the engine with the = fuel supply=20 only enabled to the injectors and not the=20 carburator.

 

Steve=20 Boese

RV6A, 1986 = 13B NA,=20 RD1A, EC2

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:09 = PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 injectors

John,

    This may be a = stretch=20 but could you be pulling residual fuel from the Weber float bowl = when=20 starting on the injectors causing the=20 flooding ??............. 
 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B = ROTARY=20 Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

 

 

From: John=20 <downing.j@sbcglobal.net>
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 4:31:10=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 injectors

Well I spent = the=20 afternoon testing the computer system and after checking the grounds and = the=20 power to the injectors, I ran the engine up to 180 degrees, stopped for = a glass=20 of tea and went back out to the shed and started the = engine, flooding,=20 pulled the fuse quick so as to not flood the engine.  I have the = upgrade's=20 so I clipped the stethoscope to each injector and ran the test mode for = the=20 injectors and each on was clicking, so I tried a restart with the fuse = pulled=20 and the engine started.  I unplugged all the injectors and the = engine=20 started, so I guess the new set isn't working any better than the = rebuilds I=20 bought from Bruce T.  Is there a way to test those injectors to = tell which=20 may be hanging open.  I have two cycle oil and MM oil in the fuel, = so every=20 thing should be well lubed, I did this when I was having a condition = with the=20 rotor lube pump.  I think I'll go out this evening after it cools = down and=20 see if will still run with the injectors unplugged.  I'll have to = wait till=20 Tracy gets home=20 to find out if it's Okay to run with the Weber with the fuel side of the = computer turned off.  JohnD....Thank you for your = help!

 

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