X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4225810 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:26:29 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.101; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1271633189; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=wgjAe9 SC3fIyIQYc0Np0OG8wRnaLG8AAxt5B5Se7Gos=; b=TgZd5/XEUUVjrfeUl0xLqQQ5H TTVWlGohk0IoBUq6wmSQebfZT5FvV59S+W00+hfHm92g3tednDuBpW5Ue6fzg== Received: from fwebmail09.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.159]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20100418232553H0100t2idfe>; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:25:53 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [207.115.11.159] Received: from [208.114.45.170] by fwebmail09.isp.att.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:25:52 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: cooling for ground runs Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:25:52 +0000 Message-Id: <041820102325.9746.4BCB94FF000D75620000261222218675169B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9746_1271633152_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9746_1271633152_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George, Without reveling proprietory info can you give a hint as to where the "= O" rings are in Bill's P port inserts ??................. -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" : --------------=20 Mike, I have been a PP convert from the beginning, because of the additional powe= r gains, however my concerns from the beginning were fitting of the PP, inl= et size and shape and tuning for ram effect. I agree with Lynn on the inlet shape, however oblong is difficult to achiev= e for everyone, so the round being next best and is easier to make and fit,= I settled on that. However I still had a nagging feeling that all PP's leak over time no matte= r what you do to seal them. This belief as a result of many discussions wi= th engine rebuilders and racers. Now that Bill has designed the two piece inlet ( redesign of the Powersport= unit) with O ring sealing, I am much happier and will go that way. I have = already placed my order for some. Bill is intending to test the PP size for power as soon as humanly possible= , however it's not the highest priority, at this point in time. The Powersport were a lower reduction unit designed for max power at 6,000 = rpm. I can only assume ( from discussions) their considering redesigning wi= th a 2.8:1 ratio to take advantage of higher RPM, which affects a whole ran= ge of things - including the PP size ( that certainly is my suggestion anyw= ay). My guess is a whole lot of work must be done before they get to that s= tage.=20 All I can say is wait for the results, I believe you will be pleasantly ple= ased with the additional power, my guess is about 230 hp for a 2 rotor at 7= ,200 rpm - maybe more at that RPM and to 7,500 rpm. George (down under) Dave, I am going to do something different with the intake at some point. I cant = get the prop RPM that I should be getting in level flight and I refuse to h= ack on the prop until I convince myself that there isnt a little more HP in= the engine via a better intake. Also, my current config wont allow the fit= of an air filter and I don=E2=80=99t want to fly forever without one. So w= ould like to change the config to accommodate a filter and ram air. I havent decided what route to take yet. Either a better 4 port manifold or= a PP engine/manifold. Waiting to see how the PP guys make out (Mark S., ho= w about an update). In either case I'll build it on my spare engine and get= it all done off the airplane so it is plug and play with minimal down time= . I hope to do it sometime next winter. Current status. Havent had a chance to fly again since my loss of power due= to fuel starvation a few weeks ago. Went through the entire fuel system bu= t didn=E2=80=99t find a smoking gun. Replaced my fuel filters with some hig= her flow units, but don=E2=80=99t believe that was the problem. Replaced my= injectors with the original ones I had rebuilt by RC Engineering. The new = injectors flow more fuel so now the tuning is a little out of whack. Also at the last oil change I switched from a straight weight mineral oil t= o Mobil One. Now my previously tight engine leaks like a sieve. So trying t= o address numerous oil leaks. But I think I'm getting close to resuming fli= ght. Oh, one more distraction. Just about into the soaring season so I'm thrashi= ng trying to get my glider ready for summer. Mike Wills=20=20 From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Mike, Repeat after me: "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "= I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild = unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I wi= ll fly instead."=20 Lets face it. You tinkered with that thing for many years. If you were ev= er going to get it right you would have done it by now. So quit trying and= keep flying. :-) David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Scott, I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture shows your intake manifold= . Looks like you used a casting for the lower part with a transition to tub= ing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock Mazda turbo casting that = you cut the top off of? I'd like to do something similar. Not real happy wi= th my current manifold and would like to rebuild it. Mike Wills From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Thanks Scott, You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little. I say if it w= ont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when I first starte= d flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal cooling in the a= ir. At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless the OAT was abo= ve 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited to about 30 minutes. cool= ing in the air was similarly limited to shallow climbs and less than full p= ower in all but the coolest of climates. However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which is a diffe= rent story. A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is sure to push t= he limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar fed from a hose = is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended ground runs at = or near full power. BTW Scott,=20 I just took another look at your website and picture. You sure have done v= ery nice workmanship. I can't wait to see that thing fly! It is guarantee= d to be one of the fastest RV's around. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, wrote: Chris & Terria: I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told me that = it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the ground. He= said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to flying speed = most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground. I took his advi= se and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way looks a lot like your= s with major differences being cooler ducting and cooler orientation. He's = a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_item= Id=3D1727 Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my oil = cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the oil co= oler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I built next, a= nd it worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial duct. What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling problems? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Terria To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Gents, I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am only able to run for ab= out 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so. I=E2=80=99m looking for ideas on= how to extend the time for each ground run. I was thinking of adding a sp= ray bar like others have discussed. My thought was to drill some holes in = some PVC and connect it to the garden hose. Then put it in the intake in f= ront of the radiator. I would have to run the hose out the front and clamp= it down so it doesn=E2=80=99t come close to the prop. I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though. I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my radiator and duct work. Thanks, Chris -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --=20 --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9746_1271633152_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9746_1271633152_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9746_1271633152_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
George,
    Without reveling proprietory info can you give a hi= nt as to where the "O" rings
are in Bill's P port inserts ??.................
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from "George Lendich" <le= ndich@aanet.com.au>: --------------

Mike,
I have been a PP convert from the beginnin= g, because of the additional power gains, however my concerns from the begi= nning were fitting of the PP, inlet size and shape and tuning for ram effec= t.
I agree with Lynn on the inlet shape, howe= ver oblong is difficult to achieve for everyone, so the round being next be= st and is easier to make and fit, I settled on that.
 
However I still had a nagging feeling that= all PP's leak over time no matter what you do to seal them. This beli= ef  as a result of many discussions with engine rebuilders and racers.=
 
Now that Bill has designed the two pi= ece inlet ( redesign of the Powersp= ort unit) with O ring sealing, I am much happier and will go that way. I ha= ve already placed my order for some.
 
Bill is intending to test the PP size for = power as soon as humanly possible, however it's not the highest priority, a= t this point in time.
 
The Powersport were a lower reduction unit=  designed for max power at 6,000 rpm. I can only assume ( from discuss= ions) their considering redesigning with a 2.8:1 ratio to take advanta= ge of higher RPM, which affects a whole range of things - including the PP = size ( that certainly is my suggestion anyway). My guess is a whole lo= t of work must be done before they get to that stage. 
 
All I can say is wait for the results, I b= elieve you will be pleasantly pleased with the additional power, my guess i= s about 230 hp for a 2 rotor at 7,200 rpm - maybe more at that RPM and to 7= ,500 rpm.
George  (down under)
Dave,
 
I am going to do something different with the int= ake at some point. I cant get the prop RPM that I should be getting in= level flight and I refuse to hack on the prop until I convince myself that= there isnt a little more HP in the engine via a better intake. Also, my cu= rrent config wont allow the fit of an air filter and I don=E2=80=99t want t= o fly forever without one. So would like to change the config to accom= modate a filter and ram air.
 
I havent decided what route to take yet. Either a= better 4 port manifold or a PP engine/manifold. Waiting to see how the PP = guys make out (Mark S., how about an update). In either case I'll buil= d it on my spare engine and get it all done off the airplane so it is plug = and play with minimal down time. I hope to do it sometime next wi= nter.
 
Current status. Havent had a chance to fly again = since my loss of power due to fuel starvation a few weeks ago. Went through= the entire fuel system but didn=E2=80=99t find a smoking gun. Replaced my = fuel filters with some higher flow units, but don=E2=80=99t believe that wa= s the problem. Replaced my injectors with the original ones I had rebuilt b= y RC Engineering. The new injectors flow more fuel so now the tuning is&nbs= p; a little out of whack.
 
Also at the last oil change I switched from a str= aight weight mineral oil to Mobil One. Now my previously tight engine leaks= like a sieve. So trying to address numerous oil leaks. But I think I'm get= ting close to resuming flight.
 
Oh, one more distraction. Just about into the soa= ring season so I'm thrashing trying to get my glider ready for summer.
 
Mike Wills  

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs

Mike,
Repeat after me:  "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly i= nstead." "I will not rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will no= t rebuild unnecessarily, I will fly instead." "I will not rebuild unnecessa= rily, I will fly instead."
 
Lets face it.  You tinkered with that thing for many years. = If you were ever going to get it right you would have done it by now. = ; So quit trying and keep flying.  :-)
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net>= wrote:
Scott,
 
I agree with Dave, that looks great. One picture = shows your intake manifold. Looks like you used a casting for the lower par= t with a transition to tubing. Where did you get the casting? Is it a stock= Mazda turbo casting that you cut the top off of? I'd like to do somet= hing similar. Not real happy with my current manifold and would like to reb= uild it.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs

Thanks Scott,
You are right about what I said and I will = clarify a little.  I say if it wont cool on the ground, it wont cool i= n the air because when I first started flying I had marginal cooling on the= ground and marginal cooling in the air.  At that time I could idle an= d taxi indefinitely unless the OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times w= ould be limited to about 30 minutes.  cooling in the air was similarly= limited to shallow climbs and less than full power in all but the coolest = of climates.

However, Chris may be talking about high power ground r= uns which is a different story.  A full 5 minutes at full power on the= ground is sure to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary s= pray bar fed from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do= extended ground runs at or near full power.

BTW Scott,
I just t= ook another look at your website and picture.  You sure have done very= nice workmanship.  I can't wait to see that thing fly!  It is gu= aranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around.

--
David Leonard<= BR>
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, &= lt;shipchief@aol.com> wrote:
Chris & Terria:
I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told me = that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the groun= d. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to flying&n= bsp;speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground. I too= k his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way looks a lot= like yours with major differences being cooler ducting and cooler orientat= ion. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/m= ain.php?g2_itemId=3D1727
Tracy has commented that I should have redu= ced the cross section of my oil cooler duct more quickly to force the air t= o uniformly pass thru the oil cooler core. I applied that thinking to my wa= ter cooler which I built next, and it worked even better than my cardboard = and tape trial duct.
What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling probl= ems?
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Terria <candtmallory@embarqmail.c= om>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground= runs

Gents,
 
I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am = only able to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so.  I=E2= =80=99m looking for ideas on how to extend the time for each ground run.&nb= sp; I was thinking of adding a spray bar like others have discussed.  = My thought was to drill some holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden= hose.  Then put it in the intake in front of the radiator.  I wo= uld have to run the hose out the front and clamp it down so it doesn=E2=80= =99t come close to the prop.
 
I=E2=80=99m open to all ideas though.
 
I=E2=80=99ve attached a picture that shows my radiat= or and duct work.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris







--
<= /BLOCKQUOTE>
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