X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4225289 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:47:47 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100418054710.RRBK20564.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:47:10 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([174.66.169.142]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id 6tmp1e00534gpFS04tn0uj; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:47:00 -0400 X-VR-Score: -124.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=KqzZVGv1/pIBe+XbL3gCBfL8vaFXECOST7Bs1vfp5Gs= c=1 sm=1 a=1AxR2Bxg0C4A:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:17 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=ZZNEH-WgAAAA:8 a=1oqGTYSLAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=l7O8cyOO1Bjzr9XPQEwA:9 a=RT0l6xWRE6S5xppye68A:7 a=Ld_pUkJKVRS5e1LwfErQlWObE08A:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=botiS8bjTA0A:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=cvn8laQl214A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=44JhVUA6UpNT6lPC:21 a=b7S0beZPRZCsOUDf:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=bZkwDJHX6969VLiB1WQA:9 a=T6pS-_39JqKto1Sai7gA:7 a=MNDq38ykaZiHTssog__47jWGcOsA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <9581A623337B4897B393D3BEA70E3834@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:46:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01CADE7F.DE29E1A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01CADE7F.DE29E1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I concur with Dave and Scott. At low to mid power settings on the ground = I can run indefinitely without overheating. Uncowled it takes a long = time for the temps to come up. Cowled the temps come up much faster. But = in neither case will the temps exceed around 180 on both coolant and = oil. You didn=92t mention if the engine was cowled during the high power = runs. If so I recommend trying without the cowl installed if possible. At full power settings on the ground and fully cowled I've never run the = engine more than about 15 minutes at a time, but for that run time I = still have not hit a red line on either oil or coolant. In flight at the = top of an 8000' climb from 525'MSL with a OAT on the ground of 95F my = temps were 202 oil and 195 coolant. My typical cruise temps are 185 oil = and 180 coolant. I run a 180 degree thermostat. I also concur with Bill's assessment of your oil cooler ducting. The = inlet looks reasonable to me but the outlet looks extremely restrictive. = Honestly I think you'd be better off eliminating it entirely and just = letting the exit air dump into the cowl to find its own way out. Just my = opinion. Hard to tell about the radiator ducting. What are your radiator = core dimensions? Mike Wills=20 From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Thanks Scott, You are right about what I said and I will clarify a little. I say if = it wont cool on the ground, it wont cool in the air because when I first = started flying I had marginal cooling on the ground and marginal cooling = in the air. At that time I could idle and taxi indefinitely unless the = OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would be limited to about 30 = minutes. cooling in the air was similarly limited to shallow climbs and = less than full power in all but the coolest of climates. However, Chris may be talking about high power ground runs which is a = different story. A full 5 minutes at full power on the ground is sure = to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray bar fed = from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended = ground runs at or near full power. BTW Scott,=20 I just took another look at your website and picture. You sure have = done very nice workmanship. I can't wait to see that thing fly! It is = guaranteed to be one of the fastest RV's around. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, wrote: Chris & Terria: I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard told me = that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the = ground. He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to = flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the ground. = I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way = looks a lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting and = cooler orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: = http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727 Tracy has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my = oil cooler duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the = oil cooler core. I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I = built next, and it worked even better than my cardboard and tape trial = duct. What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling = problems? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Terria To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs Gents, I am doing the higher power ground runs now, and am only able to run = for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so. I=92m looking for ideas = on how to extend the time for each ground run. I was thinking of adding = a spray bar like others have discussed. My thought was to drill some = holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden hose. Then put it in the = intake in front of the radiator. I would have to run the hose out the = front and clamp it down so it doesn=92t come close to the prop. I=92m open to all ideas though. I=92ve attached a picture that shows my radiator and duct work. Thanks, Chris -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01CADE7F.DE29E1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I concur with Dave and Scott. At low to mid = power=20 settings on the ground I can run indefinitely without overheating. = Uncowled it=20 takes a long time for the temps to come up. Cowled the temps come up = much=20 faster. But in neither case will the temps exceed around 180 on both = coolant and=20 oil. You didn=92t mention if the engine was cowled during the high power = runs. If=20 so I recommend trying without the cowl installed if = possible.
 
At full power settings on the ground and fully = cowled=20 I've never run the engine more than about 15 minutes at a time, but for = that run=20 time I still have not hit a red line on either oil or coolant. In flight = at the=20 top of an 8000' climb from 525'MSL with a OAT on the ground of 95F my = temps were=20 202 oil and 195 coolant. My typical cruise temps are 185 oil and 180 = coolant. I=20 run a 180 degree thermostat.
 
I also concur with Bill's assessment of your = oil cooler=20 ducting. The inlet looks reasonable to me but the outlet looks extremely = restrictive. Honestly I think you'd be better off eliminating it = entirely and=20 just letting the exit air dump into the cowl to find its own way out. = Just my=20 opinion. Hard to tell about the radiator ducting. What are your radiator = core=20 dimensions?
 
Mike Wills 

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Thanks Scott,
You are right about what I said and I = will=20 clarify a little.  I say if it wont cool on the ground, it wont = cool in the=20 air because when I first started flying I had marginal cooling on the = ground and=20 marginal cooling in the air.  At that time I could idle and taxi=20 indefinitely unless the OAT was above 85 or so, when my taxi times would = be=20 limited to about 30 minutes.  cooling in the air was similarly = limited to=20 shallow climbs and less than full power in all but the coolest of=20 climates.

However, Chris may be talking about high power ground = runs=20 which is a different story.  A full 5 minutes at full power on the = ground=20 is sure to push the limits of most installations, and a temporary spray = bar fed=20 from a hose is a reasonable thought if you feel the need to do extended = ground=20 runs at or near full power.

BTW Scott,
I just took another = look at=20 your website and picture.  You sure have done very nice = workmanship. =20 I can't wait to see that thing fly!  It is guaranteed to be one of = the=20 fastest RV's around.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary = RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> = wrote:
Chris & Terria:
I had ground running temp issues at lower power. Dave Leonard = told me=20 that it's important to get it to self cool at low to mid power on the = ground.=20 He said that reliance on sufficient cooling when you come up to=20 flying speed most likely won't work if it won't self cool on the = ground.=20 I took his advise and redesigned my cooling system, which by the way = looks a=20 lot like yours with major differences being cooler ducting and cooler=20 orientation. He's a link to my page @ EAA326 site: http://gallery.eaa326.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3D1727Tracy=20 has commented that I should have reduced the cross section of my oil = cooler=20 duct more quickly to force the air to uniformly pass thru the oil = cooler core.=20 I applied that thinking to my water cooler which I built next, and it = worked=20 even better than my cardboard and tape trial duct.
What is the engine RPM and % load that you start to have cooling=20 problems?
Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Terria = <candtmallory@embarqmail.com>
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Apr = 17, 2010=20 10:02 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] cooling for ground runs

Gents,
 
I am doing the higher power ground runs now, = and am only=20 able to run for about 5 minutes before reaching 195* or so.  = I=92m looking=20 for ideas on how to extend the time for each ground run.  I was = thinking=20 of adding a spray bar like others have discussed.  My thought was = to=20 drill some holes in some PVC and connect it to the garden hose.  = Then put=20 it in the intake in front of the radiator.  I would have to run = the hose=20 out the front and clamp it down so it doesn=92t come close to the = prop.
 
I=92m open to all ideas though.
 
I=92ve attached a picture that shows my = radiator and duct=20 work.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
l




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