X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.3) with ESMTP id 4151753 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 04 Mar 2010 04:06:26 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED86173A3C for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:05:42 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id F190FBEC1B7 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:48:51 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <4FBE209403CC4EBBBD601B7DBCE24EA5@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fixed Pitch Prop Thrust was RE: [FlyRotary] Re: single rotor Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:48:54 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CABBCB.570AC800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100303-0, 03/03/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CABBCB.570AC800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01CABBCB.570AC800" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01CABBCB.570AC800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, Propellers are something else I don't understand and need to learn, so a = couple of question if I may. 1. I assume 'Velocity of incoming flow ' means speed of the aircraft. 2. Additional velocity, acceleration by propeller - don't quite = understand that one, Could you explain how one gets 2. value. TIA George ( down under) Arggg! Props! =20 Ok, Bill - here is my stab at it. The following equation tells the = tale - well some of it. =20 (1) where: T thrust [N] =20 D propeller diameter [m] =20 v velocity of incoming flow [m/s] =20 additional velocity, acceleration by propeller [m/s] =20 density of fluid [kg/m=B3] =20 =20 (air: =3D 1.225 kg/m=B3, water: =3D 1000 kg/m=B3) =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Thrust is about increasing the momentum of the air mass passing = through the prop disc. Static thrust occurs while sitting still - = therefore v (the air velocity of air in front of the prop disc) =3D 0. = So the addition momentum imparted to the air mass by our spinning prop = is p*DV. Since the air mass p during our run up is essentially constant = ), that leaves two variables - the diameter of the prop D and the amount = the spinning prop accelerates the air (Dv) to affect the thrust (T) = generated.=20 =20 The following are extracts from some of the better article (more = understandable) material I have read about props and static thrust. As = it concludes and Tracy points out Static Thrust does not really tell the = whole story. =20 =20 For a typical, fixed pitch propeller, the largest induced velocity = occurs under static conditions, where the efficiency is small. It = decreases with increasing flight speed, until it reaches zero: no thrust = is generated. For a given power P, it is always desirable to use the largest = possible propeller diameter D, which may be limited by mechanical = restrictions (landing gear height) or aerodynamic constraints (tip Mach = number). That's why most man or solar powered airplanes use large, = slowly turning props. These catch a large volume of air and accelerate = it only slightly to achieve the maximum efficiency. As long as an aircraft does not move, its propeller operates under = static conditions. There is no air moving towards the propeller due to = the flight speed, the propeller creates its own inflow instead. A = propeller, with its chord and twist distribution designed for the = operating point under flight conditions, does not perform very well = under static conditions.=20 As opposed to a larger helicopter rotor, the flow around the = relatively small propeller is heavily distorted and even may be = partially separated. From the momentum theory of propellers we learn, = that the efficiency at lower speeds is strongly dependent on the power = loading (power per disk area), and this ratio for a propeller is much = higher than that for a helicopter rotor. We are able to achieve about = 80-90% of the thrust, as predicted by momentum theory for the design = point, but we can reach only 50% or less of the predicted ideal thrust = under static conditions. So much for theory. My personal experience when I went from the = faster turning 68x72" prop to the slower turning (2.85 gear box) 76x88 = prop - my take off acceleration increased significantly indicating (in = my opinion) more thrust was being generated. With the 76x88 prop and = my old 13B I would generate 5800 rpm static (for what its worth), with = it cut down to 74x88 I picked up 200 rpm for a static of 6000 rpm. Plus = I got another inch of ground clearance - needed on my nose geared Rv-6a. = =20 =20 Interestingly enough the larger slower turning prop not only did not = hurt my top speed it actually increase around 4 mph - perhaps due to the = increased HP due to high rpm of the lighter loaded engine? =20 Ok, Bill that's my take and what I could pull out of references. = Don't know if it really tells us a whole lot - there are some good NACA = studies on Prop - but the math makes my head hurt. =20 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 5:01 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: single rotor =20 I would like to get some educational (for me) discussions going on = this. =20 A prop of 76 X 88 is pretty common in our usage. Tracy, Ed, and I = have a Performance Prop in this dimension. Dennis and maybe others have = a Catto prop in this dimension. We all seem to be getting static rpm of = about 52-5400 rpm (except for Dennis with his new DIE manifold). Tracy = and Ed had their prop cut down to 74 X 88 and are getting increased = static to around 6000 rpm. Higher rpm =3D higher HP for the rotary. We = should get higher thrust with a slightly smaller diameter prop? This = has something to do with the idea of sizing the prop to the engine. I = wonder what is the proper size? What is the proper static rpm for best = performance with the rotary? What did Tracy and Ed lose in prop = performance and what did they gain in total performance when they cut = the prop down? =20 It seems to me that a prop sized for climb would allow around 7500 rpm = at about Vx or Vy? Max speed would require 7500 rpm at WOT sea level? = I wonder what rpm our props allow at these speeds? If you had a prop = that would do the above, I wonder what the static rpm would be? Then = since most of us have fixed pitch props, I wonder where we should try to = be for the best of both worlds (a compromise)? =20 We have some really good engineers in this group and they have made = these selections. I know they know why they made the selection they = did. How about sharing? :>) Don't worry, you can not ramble on too much for me! =20 Bill B=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:32 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: single rotor Al is correct about it taking HP to make static thrust with a prop but = the assumption about the relationship between HP and static thrust is = subject to a lot of variables. There is no fixed relationship between = static thrust and HP. If there were, you could not account for the = ability of most helicopters to hover. =20 =20 You could easily increase static thrust by 1.18 by increasing the = diameter of the prop and the reduction ratio of the redrive with NO = increase in HP. =20 =20 But my real point was that static thrust is not a very useful = measurement to us. =20 Tracy On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Al Gietzen = wrote: Looking at the two sizes of the engine, it takes 1.6 times as much = horsepower to develop 1.18 times as much static thrust! Somehow this = does not compute for me..I always doubt the performance figures in a = sales presentation and when they don't make sense to me...??? =20 Bill B (hoping this generates an educational experience for me :>) =20 =20 We're talking about the amount of force exerted by the prop with the = plane (motor) standing still. So, it seems to make sense to me that the power needed to accelerate = the air to generate the thrust would go as the cube root; and the cube = root of 1.6 is very close 1.18. =20 To move the amount of air it takes to generate the thrust certainly = does take horsepower. Very much the same as the power it takes to drive = the pump (or generator) on a dyno. So I don't know how Tracy was = interpreting the question. =20 Al =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01CABBCB.570AC800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Ed,
Propellers are something else I don't = understand=20 and need to learn, so a couple of question if I may.
1. I assume 'Velocity of incoming flow = ' means=20 speed of the aircraft.
2. Additional velocity, acceleration by = propeller -=20 don't quite understand that one,
Could you explain how one gets 2.=20 value.
TIA
George ( down under)

Arggg! =20 Props!

 

Ok,=20 Bill =96 here is my stab at it.  The following equation tells the = tale =96=20 well some of it.

 

         &nbs= p; (1)

where:

T

thrust

[N]

D

propeller=20 diameter

[m]

v

velocity of incoming=20 flow

[m/s]

additional velocity, = acceleration by=20 propeller

[m/s]

density of=20 fluid

[kg/m=B3]

 

(air:  =3D 1.225 = kg/m=B3,=20 water:  =3D 1000=20 = kg/m=B3)

 

 

 

Thrust=20 is about increasing the momentum of the air mass passing through the = prop=20 disc.  Static thrust occurs while sitting still -  therefore = v=20 (the air = velocity of=20 air in front of the prop disc)  =3D=20 0.  So the addition momentum imparted to the air mass by our = spinning=20 prop is p*DV. =20 Since=20 the air mass p during = our run up=20 is essentially constant ), that leaves two variables - the diameter of = the=20 prop D and the amount = the=20 spinning prop accelerates the air (Dv) = to affect = the=20  thrust (T)=20 generated.=20

 

The=20 following are extracts from some of the better article (more = understandable)=20 material I have read about props and static thrust.  As it = concludes and=20 Tracy points=20 out Static Thrust does not really tell the whole=20 story.=20  

 

For a typical, fixed = pitch=20 propeller, the largest induced velocity = occurs under static conditions, where the efficiency = is small.=20 It decreases with increasing flight speed, until it reaches zero: no = thrust is=20 generated.

For a given power P, it = is always=20 desirable to use the largest possible propeller diameter D, which may be limited by = mechanical=20 restrictions (landing gear height) or aerodynamic constraints (tip = Mach=20 number). That's why most man or solar powered airplanes use large, = slowly=20 turning props. These catch a large volume of air and accelerate it = only=20 slightly to achieve the maximum = efficiency.

As long as an aircraft = does not=20 move, its propeller operates under static conditions. There is no air = moving=20 towards the propeller due to the flight speed, the propeller creates = its own=20 inflow instead. A propeller, with its chord and twist distribution = designed=20 for the operating point under flight conditions, does not perform very = well=20 under static conditions.

As opposed to a larger = helicopter=20 rotor, the flow around the relatively small propeller is heavily = distorted and=20 even may be partially separated. From the momentum theory of = propellers we=20 learn, that the efficiency at lower speeds is strongly dependent on = the power=20 loading (power per disk area), and this ratio for a propeller is much = higher=20 than that for a helicopter rotor. We are able to achieve about 80-90% = of the=20 thrust, as predicted by momentum theory for the design point, but we = can reach=20 only 50% or less of the predicted ideal thrust under static=20 conditions.

So much for = theory.  My personal experience when I went from the faster = turning=20 68x72=94 prop to the slower turning (2.85 gear box) 76x88 prop =96 my = take off=20 acceleration increased significantly indicating (in my opinion) more = thrust=20 was being generated.  With the  76x88 prop and my old 13B I = would=20 generate 5800 rpm static (for what its worth), with it cut down to = 74x88 I=20 picked up 200 rpm for a static of 6000 rpm.  Plus I got another = inch of=20 ground clearance =96 needed on my nose geared Rv-6a. =20

 

Interestingly enough=20 the larger slower turning prop not only did not hurt my top speed it = actually=20 increase around 4 mph =96 perhaps due to the increased HP due to high = rpm of the=20 lighter loaded engine?

 

Ok, Bill = that=92s my=20 take and what I could pull out of references.  Don=92t know if it = really=20 tells us a whole lot =96 there are some good NACA studies on Prop =96 = but the math=20 makes my head hurt.

 

Ed

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 = 5:01=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: single = rotor

 

I would like to get some educational (for = me)=20 discussions going on this. 

A prop of 76 X 88 is pretty common in our = usage. =20 Tracy, Ed, and I have a Performance Prop in this dimension.  = Dennis and=20 maybe others have a Catto prop in this dimension.  We all seem to = be=20 getting static rpm of about 52-5400 rpm (except for Dennis with his = new DIE=20 manifold).  Tracy and Ed had their prop cut down to 74 X 88 and = are=20 getting increased static to around 6000 rpm.  Higher rpm =3D = higher HP for=20 the rotary.  We should get higher thrust with a slightly smaller = diameter=20 prop?  This has something to do with the idea of sizing the prop = to the=20 engine.  I wonder what is the proper size?  What is the = proper=20 static rpm for best performance with the rotary?   What did Tracy = and Ed=20 lose in prop performance and what did they gain in total performance = when they=20 cut the prop down?

 

It seems to me that a prop sized for climb = would allow=20 around 7500 rpm at about Vx or Vy?  Max speed would require 7500 = rpm at=20 WOT sea level?  I wonder what rpm our props allow at these = speeds? =20 If you had a prop that would do the above, I wonder what the static = rpm would=20 be?  Then since most of us have fixed pitch props, I wonder where = we=20 should try to be for the best of both worlds (a=20 compromise)?

 

We have some really good engineers in this = group and=20 they have made these selections.  I know they know why they made = the=20 selection they did.  How about sharing? =20 :>)

Don=92t worry, you can not ramble on too = much for=20 me!

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 = 2:32=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: single = rotor

Al is correct about it taking HP to make = static thrust=20 with a prop but the assumption about the relationship between HP and = static=20 thrust is subject to a lot of variables.  There is no fixed = relationship=20 between static thrust and HP.   If there were, you could not = account=20 for the ability of most helicopters=20 to hover.  

 

 You could easily increase static = thrust by 1.18=20 by increasing the diameter of the prop and the reduction = ratio of=20 the redrive with NO increase in HP. =20

 

But my real point was that static thrust is = not a very=20 useful measurement to us.

 

Tracy

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Al Gietzen = <ALVentures@cox.net>=20 wrote:

Looking at the two=20 sizes of the engine, it takes 1.6 times as much horsepower to develop = 1.18=20 times as much static thrust!  Somehow this does not compute for = me=85.I=20 always doubt the performance figures in a sales presentation and when = they=20 don=92t make sense to me=85..???

 

Bill = B (hoping=20 this generates an educational experience for me  :>) =20

 

We=92re = talking about=20 the amount of force exerted by the prop with the plane (motor) = standing=20 still.

So, it = seems to=20 make sense to me that the power needed to accelerate the air to = generate the=20 thrust would go as the cube root; and the cube root of 1.6 is very = close=20 1.18.

 

To move = the amount=20 of air it takes to generate the thrust certainly does take = horsepower. =20 Very much the same as the power it takes to drive the pump (or = generator) on a=20 dyno.  So I don=92t know how Tracy was interpreting the=20 question.

 

Al

 



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________=20 Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature = database=20 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
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