X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4124677 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 10:13:16 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.104; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1266160395; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=k+vUzu 2jGHH42ufdpEZwHKkKkKB6HKgb2iJ3QwFYntU=; b=SbIETVZxMGlw/9J7bFNBnHhM4 4oZDHZiqBqHFoCEfa2vTfXo4JuDlyu5NT470C9O6KVo5qWPjNTtREJbOLAyow== Received: from fwebmail17.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.117]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20100214151239H0400p99e9e>; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:12:39 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.117] Received: from [208.114.38.33] by fwebmail17.isp.att.net; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:12:39 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: N.A. Renesis to turbo Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:12:39 +0000 Message-Id: <021420101512.26585.4B7812E6000DBFE2000067D922228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26585_1266160359_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26585_1266160359_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott , Ed , et al , I will echo Ed's opinion about the TO4 turbine A/R ratio (fully = admitting to having having no turbo experience than that of others on the group)..............My junk = yard mock-up TO4 has a turbine housing with a 1.30 A/R ratio (not a "On Center" housing").........= .If I built a turbo system=20 without wast-gate and/or inter-cooler I would probably start out with a hou= sing this "Loose"......... IMHO & FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" : --------------=20 Well, youngster {:>), Gregg sounds like he has the right combination. IF y= ou are going to fly without boost control (other than the throttle), then y= ou want a turbo with a high a/r (area/radius) ratio, larger than 1.0 in my = opinion. =20 The same turbo with a small a/r (< 1.0) will spin up faster with less exhau= st/throttle and give you gobs of boost on the low rpm engine =E2=80=93 the = problem is you must have some sort of boost control or at WOT the boost wil= l go high enough to damage the engine. =20 If you use a larger a/r, the turbo takes more exhaust gas (read more thrott= le) to produce the boost, this generally means low boost at low rpm (so not= good for that sports car feel), but more most and HP at the higher rpm whe= re we generally are interested. If you either have an example to follow (o= r can work with a turbo seller who will permit you to swap in/out different= a/r turbine housings), you can experiment to find the best a/r for your in= stallation and operating environment. =20 Another benefit of high a/r is that there is less exhaust back pressure due= to the more open channel through the turbine housing. =20 But, if you are going to try that route, make certain you start out with an= a/r that you are confident is perhaps a tad too large. You can always put= on a smaller a/r to get more top end performance =E2=80=93 provide you hav= e not blown your engine {>) =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of shipchief@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo =20 Kelly: Don err, SCOTT here ;) IIRC the specs on the turbo is .71 A/R and P trim. I called Turbonetics and= told them the application was a 13b used as a generator in a sound proof b= ox that would have quite a pressure drop at the air filter to overcome.....= and be used on top of a mountain...!?! The sales guy assured me that a 60-1 .71 A/R and P trim was the ticket.=20 Later I emailed Greg Richter of blue mountain fame...he was running his Coz= y with a 13b Turbo, and he was using the same exact turbo? Anyway, he had some mamoth Warnke 3 blade that he could overspeed at will, = and was looking for more bite. I indicated that I planned to use (some specific) blow off valve and waste = gate, Greg said why? do you need it? Don't put that stuff on your engine un= less it needs it. That left me in a quandry. I left them out for lightness = and simplicity. I'll add them if I have a demonstrated need. How ever that = manifests it'self?? Remeber, I have a RD-1 with a 4 planet set, so I should endevor to keep HP = at or below 200. I'm supposedly way over turbo'd. I don't have an intercool= er for this reason. Self control will be required. Scott=20 PS. I'm only a few months from turning 55!! =20 -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 7:31 am Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to turbo Sorry Scott............This was directed at you !!..................<:) -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" : -----= ---------=20 Don, Curious what the A/R ratio of your "On Center" TO4 exhaust turbine housin= g is ?............. Most of the recommendations from those of the group flying ahead or behind = the TO4 range from about .96 to 1.15 A/R ratio..............Will be interested in your rp= m/mp numbers when you get airborne................=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from shipchief@aol.com: --------------=20 Don, I'm just a bit ahead of where you want to go, but way behind on the rest of= the plane. I'm wingless in the garage at home, test running in the yard wi= th the tail tied to a cedar tree. I'm building an RV-8 with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust manifold = mounting a Turbonetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine housing. The = compresor faces forward and a cone shaped K&N filter is direct mounted to = the compressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped 2.25" pipe that crosses = in front of the firewall and exits out the center of the cooling air exit (= cowl flap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ramp. The pipe is supported wi= th a clevis to the engine mount plate (between the block and oil pan) so it= all moves in harmony with the engine/turbo, yet can grow a bit from heat. = So far the turbo muffles the engine fairly well.....but I have not gone to = War Emergency Power.....yet. I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice, and mounted it under the chin,= making a fairly generous scoop, which I tested today. the oil cooler is mounted on the right side and uses the entire airflow fro= m the right cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for radiator and oil coo= ler helped solve my previous cooling failure. I ground ran for 20 minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up, and the= temps are stable. I chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the last 5 minu= tes, the highest I've gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil stable at 172= F. Tracy's engine monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel flow, so it= varies as you adjust the mixture, but I ran up to about 50HP with firm tem= perature control. This was very exciting for me becuase it's enough power t= hat the fuselage is starting to buck and shake like there might be some pow= er there, and promises of more. I have not done anything with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air entering= here goes right to the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel injectors= , turbo assembly, and spills out the bottom with the heated radiator air. To keep from choking the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making a duct= to carry the left cheek air out the left side of the cowl, where I could m= ount an intercooler. I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler here, I wo= uld need to remake the air tubes into/out of it. The important part of this= is cooling the fuel system and isolating the turbo heat from anything it c= ould damage. Dave warned me of this early on, and I have not forgotten it. You can see my progress at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/ Constructive comments are always welcome! Scott PS, I'm working very hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds up fas= t! =20 =20 =3D=20 --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26585_1266160359_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26585_1266160359_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26585_1266160359_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott , Ed , et al ,
 
           I will ec= ho Ed's opinion about the TO4 turbine A/R ratio (fully admitting to having = having
no turbo experience than that of others on the group)..............My = junk yard mock-up TO4 has a
turbine housing with a 1.30 A/R ratio (not a "On Center" housing")....= ......If  I built a turbo system
without wast-gate and/or inter-cooler I would probably start out with = a housing this "Loose".........
IMHO & FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/E= C2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 
-------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" <eande= rson@carolina.rr.com>: --------------

Well, youngster {:>= ;), Gregg sounds like he has the right combination.  IF you are going = to fly without boost control (other than the throttle), then you want a tur= bo with a high a/r (area/radius) ratio, larger than 1.0 in my opinion.=

 

The same turbo with a= small a/r (< 1.0) will spin up faster with less exhaust/throttle and gi= ve you gobs of boost on the low rpm engine =E2=80=93 the problem is you mus= t have some sort of boost control or at WOT the boost will go high enough t= o damage the engine.

 

If you use a larger a= /r, the turbo takes more exhaust gas (read more throttle) to produce the bo= ost, this generally means low boost at low rpm (so not good for that sports= car feel), but more most and HP at the higher rpm where we generally are i= nterested.  If you either have an example to follow (or can work with = a turbo seller who will permit you to swap in/out different a/r turbine hou= sings), you can experiment to find the best a/r for your installation and o= perating environment.

 

Another benefit of hi= gh a/r is that there is less exhaust back pressure due to the more open cha= nnel through the turbine housing.

 

But, if you are going= to try that route, make certain you start out with an a/r that you are con= fident is perhaps a tad too large.  You can always put on a smaller a/= r to get more top end performance =E2=80=93 provide you have not blown your= engine {>)

 

Ed<= /FONT>

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of shipchief@aol.comSent: Saturday, February 1= 3, 2010 11:09 PM
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: N.A. Renesis to turbo

<= /DIV>

 

Kelly:

Don  err, SCOTT= here ;)

IIRC the specs on th= e turbo is .71 A/R and P trim. I called Turbonetics and told them the appli= cation was a 13b used as a generator in a sound proof box that would have q= uite a pressure drop at the air filter to overcome.....and be used on top o= f a mountain...!?!

The sales guy assure= d me that a 60-1 .71 A/R and P trim was the ticket.

Later I emailed Greg= Richter of blue mountain fame...he was running his Cozy with a 13b Tu= rbo, and he was using the same exact turbo?

Anyway, he had some = mamoth Warnke 3 blade that he could overspeed at will, and was looking for = more bite.

I indicated that I p= lanned to use (some specific) blow off valve and waste gate,= Greg said why? do you need it? Don't put that stuff on your engine unless = it needs it. That left me in a quandry. I left them out for lightness and s= implicity. I'll add them if I have a demonstrated need. How ever that manif= ests it'self??

Remeber, I have a RD= -1 with a 4 planet set, so I should endevor to keep HP at or below 200. I'm= supposedly way over turbo'd. I don't have an intercooler for this reason. = Self control will be required.
Scott

PS. I'm only a few m= onths from turning 55!!

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.ne= t>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= BR>Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 7:31 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] N.A. Renesis to = turbo

Sorry Scott.........= ...This was directed at you !!..................<:)

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold


 

-------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>: -------------- <= /SPAN>

Don,

  Curious what = the A/R ratio of your "On Center" TO4 exhaust turbine housing is ?....= .........

Most of the recommen= dations from those of the group flying ahead or behind the TO4 range

from about .96 to 1.= 15 A/R ratio..............Will be interested in your rpm/mp numbers when

you get airborne....= ............ 

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold


 

-------------- Original message from shipchief@aol.com: --------------

Don,

I'm just a bit ahead= of where you want to go, but way behind on the rest of the plane. I'm wing= less in the garage at home, test running in the yard with the tail tie= d to a cedar tree.

I'm building an RV-8= with a turbo 13b. I welded up my own exhaust manifold mounting a Turb= onetics 60-1 using an 'on center' TO-4 turbine housing. The compresor faces= forward and  a cone shaped K&N filter is direct mounted to the co= mpressor housing. The exhaust is an S shaped 2.25" pipe that crosses in fro= nt of the firewall and exits out the center of the cooling air exit (cowl f= lap area) parrallel to the sheet metal ramp. The pipe is supported wit= h a clevis to the engine mount plate (between the block and oil pan) so it = all moves in harmony with the engine/turbo, yet can grow a bit from heat. S= o far the turbo muffles the engine fairly well.....but I have not gone to W= ar Emergency Power.....yet.
I 'borrowed' David Leonards radiator advice,= and mounted it under the chin, making a fairly generous scoop, which I tes= ted today.

the oil cooler is mo= unted on the right side and uses the entire airflow from the righ= t cowl cheek opening. Separate air paths for radiator and oil cooler helped= solve my previous cooling failure.

I ground ran for 20 = minutes today, building up RPM as it warmed up, and the temps are stable. I= chickened out and held at 3850 RPM for the last 5 minutes, the highest I'v= e gone yet. water temp stable @ 154F, Oil stable at 172F. Tracy's engine= monitor gives direct HP readout based on fuel flow, so it varies as you ad= just the mixture, but I ran up to about 50HP with firm temperatur= e control. This was very exciting for me becuase it's enough power that the= fuselage is starting to buck and shake like there might be some power ther= e, and promises of more.

I have not done anyt= hing with the left cowl cheek opening yet. Air entering here goes right to = the tubo air filter, and washes over the fuel injectors, turbo assembly, an= d spills out the bottom with the heated radiator air.

To keep from choking= the heated radiator air, I'm thinking of making a duct to carry the left c= heek air out the left side of the cowl, where I could mount an intercooler.= I've trial fitted a stock Mazda intercooler here, I would need to remake t= he air tubes into/out of it. The important part of this is cooling the= fuel system and isolating the turbo heat from anything it could damag= e. Dave warned me of this early on, and I have not forgotten it.=

You can see my progr= ess at: http://gallery.eaa326.org/members/semery/

Constructive comment= s are always welcome!

Scott

PS, I'm working very= hard to keep this simple and light. Weight adds up fast!=


 

 

=3D

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