X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.97] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4124486 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:20:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.97; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-ma04.mx.aol.com (imo-ma04.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.139]) by imr-db03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o1E4K5R9023207 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:20:05 -0500 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-ma04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.c16.7de7dcb5 (37531) for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-md01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-md01.mx.aol.com [64.12.143.154]) by cia-mb01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB014-d4154b7779e2291; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:19:56 -0500 Received: from webmail-d096 (webmail-d096.sim.aol.com [205.188.255.7]) by smtprly-md01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMD013-d4154b7779e2291; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:19:46 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Runner velocity; injector placement Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:19:46 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 24.19.204.151 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CC7B44139B102A_8A50_1D4B4_webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 30746-STANDARD Received: from 24.19.204.151 by webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com (205.188.255.7) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:19:46 -0500 Message-Id: <8CC7B44138CC7E4-8A50-EBE8@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CC7B44139B102A_8A50_1D4B4_webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Over at PL's site I saw material about a 16b engine with direct rotor inje= ction. Neverminding the 16b and it's aluminum side housings for now.... The fuel injectors were at the top of the engine and spray directly into= the center of the largest volume of the intake event, aimed back toward= the intake port? Pretty cool concept. No cooling passage there? If it's OK to bore the hous= ing for P Ports, then this must be OK too? Never any pressure there and a= clamped down injector wouldn't blow out. Plus, it's one heck of a long wa= ys from the exhaust pipe! SO it would be safer too? Scott -----Original Message----- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 3:44 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Runner velocity; injector placement I have a TWM 3-barrel TB on my 20B; each barrel diameter is 44 mm. I find= it works well; near sea level throttle response goes pretty much the full= stroke. At 10,000 ft the last 20% or so does little. I=E2=80=99ve never= had it at WOT very long near sea level, but at higher altitudes WOT will= result in 6200 -6300 rpm (2.17 : 1 redrive). =20 I have the stock injectors in the housing ports, and slightly smaller seco= ndary injectors in the TB. But you may recall that I have a short manifol= d, so the secondary are not very far from the ports (photo). I found early= on that the engine idled, and ran better at low rpm, on the secondary onl= y. So I wired the EC2 to stage the primary rather than the secondary =E2= =80=93 running secondary only up to 16-17=E2=80=9D MAP. Works good. =20 As I see it; injection at the ports is good for cold starting. Injectors= some distance away from the ports gives better vaporization. Injectors to= o far away from the ports; like maybe more than a foot or so, results in= liquid fuel on the runner walls, especially when cold or at lower rpm. I= think Mistral found this out when they initially had the injectors quite= a distance from the ports. =20 Al =20 P.S. Happy Birthday, Ed. I=E2=80=99m only a few months behind you, but= if you ever mention it, I=E2=80=99ll deny itJ.=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Jeff Luckey Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Runner velocity =20 After reading this, a question comes to mind: =20 What is the difference between throttle body injection and port injection?= I=E2=80=99ve heard people say that w/ the injectors up near the TB, you= get better fuel/air mixing. Is that an old-wives-tale? Which one makes= more horsepower, gives better throttle response, etc? It seems to me tha= t fabrication of intake manifold would be easier for injectors near the TB= . =20 Apparently there are benefits of port injection (=E2=80=98cause that=E2=80= =99s what the production engine uses) but I don=E2=80=99t know what they= are.. =20 What are the pros and cons of each? =20 =20 BTW =E2=80=93 Happy Birthday Ed :)! =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 08:09 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Runner velocity =20 http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html =20 This is a free download of the Bernoulli Principal. Fun to play with and= educational. =20 The amount of fuel air entering the chamber is a function of runner cross= section, velocity and time.=20 =20 The depression, or vacuum generated is a function of displacement and RPM.= So the depression is about fixed by the 2606CCs and say, 6,000 RPM. The= "M" in RPM is the time. So............ =20 That leaves only Porting to increase intake open and closing time, (length= en time period) and manufacturing the ideal intake runner set/ Throttle bo= dy combination.=20 =20 In my mind the runner size would be identical the the port opening for 4= to 6 inches out from the port opening. Then blend into one "D" shaped pip= e for the 180 bend over the engine top. Then taper to a larger pipe of abo= ut 2 1/2" to blend into a plenum just big enough to fit the throttle body= mounting plate.=20 =20 So, the cross section would be reduced gradually from the throttle body to= the end of the "D" shape, then remain constant right up to the port openi= ng. =20 I would upset the inside radius of the "D" shape with a number of burs sto= od up with a three corner punch, to generate some tubulance.in order to ke= ep flow attached. =20 Just a guess. I could be completely wrong. =20 Later, I tried a 75MM at one point and while it did nothing to improve eng= ine power and performance, in my case it had an undesirable down side =E2= =80=93 now to be fair it could have been partially the results of having= all 4 injectors back near the throttle body =E2=80=93 but in any case, if= you suddenly opened the throttle like in a panic go-a-round =E2=80=93 the= engine would bog and hesitate for a fraction of a second (seemed like min= utes {:>)), the engine never stopped, but I just didn=E2=80=99t like it.= So I went back to the 65mm. =20 So the important thing is to match your induction system to your real oper= ating regime =E2=80=93 NOT what you would in your wildest dream like for= it to be {:>). =20 Ed Anderson =20 You are only 70??=20 Run hard and put away wet comes to mind.............. =20 Lynn E. Hanover -- omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html ----------MB_8CC7B44139B102A_8A50_1D4B4_webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Over at PL's site I saw= material about a 16b engine with direct rotor injection. Neverminding the= 16b and it's aluminum side housings for now....
The fuel injectors were at the top of the engine and spray directly= into the center of the largest volume of the intake event, aimed back tow= ard the intake port?
Pretty cool concept. No cooling passage there? If it's OK to bore the= housing for P Ports, then this must be OK too? Never any pressure there= and a clamped down injector wouldn't blow out. Plus, it's one heck of a= long ways from the exhaust pipe! SO it would be safer too?
Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 3:44 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Runner velocity; injector placement

I have a TWM 3-= barrel TB on my 20B; each barrel diameter is 44 mm.  I find it works= well; near sea level throttle response goes pretty much the full stroke.&= nbsp; At 10,000 ft the last 20% or so does little.  I=E2=80=99ve neve= r had it at WOT very long near sea level, but at higher altitudes WOT will= result in 6200 -6300 rpm (2.17 : 1 redrive).
 
I have the stoc= k injectors in the housing ports, and slightly smaller secondary injectors= in the TB.  But you may recall that I have a short manifold, so the= secondary are not very far from the ports (photo). I found early on that= the engine idled, and ran better at low rpm, on the secondary only.  = ;So I wired the EC2 to stage the primary rather than the secondary =E2=80= =93 running secondary only up to 16-17=E2=80=9D MAP.  Works good.
 
As I see it; in= jection at the ports is good for cold starting. Injectors some distance aw= ay from the ports gives better vaporization. Injectors too far away from= the ports; like maybe more than a foot or so, results in liquid fuel on= the runner walls, especially when cold or at lower rpm. I think Mistral= found this out when they initially had the injectors quite a distance fro= m the ports.
 
Al
 
P.S.  Happ= y Birthday, Ed.  I=E2=80=99m only a few months behind you, but if you= ever mention it, I=E2=80=99ll deny itJ.
 
-----Original= Message-----
From: Rotary motors in air= craft [mailto:flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> 8:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Runner velocity
 
After reading this, a question comes to mind:
 
What is the difference between throttle body injection and port= injection? I=E2=80=99ve heard people say that w/ the injectors up near th= e TB, you get better fuel/air mixing.  Is that an old-wives-tale?&nbs= p; Which one makes more horsepower, gives better throttle response, etc?&n= bsp; It seems to me that fabrication of intake manifold would be easier fo= r injectors near the TB.
 
Apparently there are benefits of port injection (=E2=80=98cause= that=E2=80=99s what the production engine uses) but I don=E2=80=99t know= what they are..
 
What are the pros and cons of each?
 
 
BTW =E2=80=93 Happy Birthday Ed :)!
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t] On Behalf Of Lynn= Hanover
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> 08:09
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Runne= r velocity
 
 
This is a free download= of the Bernoulli Principal. Fun to play with and educational.
 
The amount of fuel air= entering the chamber is a function of runner cross section, velocity= and time.
 
The depression, or vacuu= m generated is a function of displacement and RPM. So the depression is ab= out fixed by the 2606CCs and say, 6,000 RPM. The "M" in RPM is the time.= So............
 
That leaves only Porting= to increase intake open and closing time, (lengthen time period) and manu= facturing the ideal intake runner set/ Throttle body combination. <= /FONT>
 
In my mind the runner si= ze would be identical the the port opening for 4 to 6 inches out from the= port opening. Then blend into one "D" shaped pipe for the 180 bend over= the engine top. Then taper to a larger pipe of about 2 1/2" to blend into= a plenum just big enough to fit the throttle body mounting plate. =
 
So, the cross section wo= uld be reduced gradually from the throttle body to the end of the "D" shap= e, then remain constant right up to the port opening.
 
I would upset the inside= radius of the "D" shape with a number of burs stood up with a three corne= r punch, to generate some tubulance.in order to keep flow attached.
 
Just a guess. I could be= completely wrong.
 
Later, I tried a 75MM at one point and while it did nothing to= improve engine power and performance, in my case it had an undesirable do= wn side =E2=80=93 now to be fair it could have been partially the results= of having all 4 injectors back near the throttle body =E2=80=93 but in an= y case, if you suddenly opened the throttle like in a panic go-a-round =E2= =80=93 the engine would bog and hesitate for a fraction of a second (seeme= d like minutes {:>)), the engine never stopped, but I just didn=E2=80= =99t like it.  So I went back to the 65mm.
 
So the important thing is to match your induction system to your= real operating regime =E2=80=93 NOT what you would in your wildest dream= like for it to  be {:>).
 
Ed Anderson
=  
You are only 70??
Run hard and put away wet comes to mind..............<= /div>
=  
Lynn E. Hanover

 ----------MB_8CC7B44139B102A_8A50_1D4B4_webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com--