X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4070426 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:23:59 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100109152322.VNGN16123.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 10:23:22 -0500 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.128.205]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id TTPN1d00D4S1t5C03TPNJz; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:23:22 -0500 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=4cmh2gL1a6RJOvq2diO5/mV5P7W7DelkioqUudxRLMU= c=1 sm=1 a=OMPgev8T_d0A:10 a=Vegc0WxVmH5BHtpNDyThtA==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=IpslU4ztAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=hG1ilDDYAAAA:8 a=aoTkCvyZUTMzROOYjwcA:9 a=JR-XyOoCCv2ZgEcpFN0A:7 a=k03jqKE2Dt3sbm2ciDEJVt-v0CgA:4 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=cr0eg9oN50EA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=Ydtqk1ashAD-ydG_:21 a=P7psmR847dWscaoc:21 a=dyCBwanuDvhrj0hEIGkA:9 a=6yd_mJqrebb6q2KhQBoA:7 a=tCTGoat47dXO3B3lmAPQd8q-MmkA:4 a=1O1bIlx-ypv8OfVC:21 a=Av9w3lVfI8XYjy6M:21 a=Vegc0WxVmH5BHtpNDyThtA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 07:24:39 -0800 Message-ID: <1D3A33A81EAB4AE3BB23F7F21941964C@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA90FC.CE07B390" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6856 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: AcqRNGkI7YsTtccPTKuJgAm3Z78i0gABqwQg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA90FC.CE07B390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keep in mind that that the higher the DT, the lower the average rad = temp, the larger rad needed. Optimization studies suggest that the optimal DT = is about 25-30 degrees. The drop you get is dependant on the flow rate. = Mazda knew what they were doing when they designed the pump, so if you've got other things right (particularly not too restrictive plumbing) you'll = get about that DT running at fairly high power. Similar situation with the = oil, you should see something in the neighborhood of 40 drop. =20 The limiting temps are on the coolant out of the engine (hottest point, = must be kept below boiling); and on the oil returning (needed to cool the = rotors without getting the side seals too hot. And don't forget it's also = cooling the gears in the re-drive.). The consensus seems to be max of not much = over 210 for anything longer than a few minutes. That suggests the pan temp = may get to 240-250.=20 =20 Early in my test program it was not unusual that I saw oil temp of 220F during climb on a warm day. It apparently had no adverse effects. After changes to the oil cooling it now peaks about 205. =20 It's advisable to measure coolant and oil temp both in and out; as well = as air temp in (OAT) and out. You'll need that info to diagnose coolant = system function during initial operation. Once you have everything working = right you may rarely look at it again. =20 That's my story, and I'm sticking to it:-). =20 Al G =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe =20 Hi George, =20 The DT is, of course, the amount of temperature rise you get in your = cooling air due to heat transfer from you heat exchanger. Recall Q =3D m * DT = * Cp - so a 40F DT simply means you must have more m (air mass flow) than if = the DT were 100F. Since air mass flow =3D Velocity of air * Area (Frontal area = of core in this case) That would generally mean you either need a radiator with a larger frontal area and/or your velocity of your cooling air = would need to be higher to get the greater air mass flow needed due to a lower = DT. That could add to your cooling drag due to the higher air velocity, but = so long as the heat Q being removed is adequate, the engine doesn't care = what combination of m and DT . =20 I have seen DT of 100F reported for the radiators by several, but I = don't recall off the top of my head DT for the oil cooler. Perhaps somebody = who has measured theirs will report it. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 6:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe =20 Mark, That is a great monitoring system, I would like to do the same thing as = you have done one day. I'm not sure about how good the 40* delta-T is, I = will let someone else comment of that, maybe Ed A. as he mentioned 80-100*F Delta -T for water, perhaps oil is half of that . George ( down under) Bill,=20 Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, I'll tell = you how I set up my engine monitoring system up. I measure temp and = pressure of both the oil and water. I also measure water level (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp back into the engine (after = the radiator). So, from this I can tell how well my exchangers are working. = As an example, I normally see a 40* delta-T across the oil cooler. If this drops, my temps go up and I need to land and find out what's not right. = I also measure coolant pressure. If pressure is low / high, I need to investigate. =20 =20 Is this information overload? Maybe, but I would rather have too much = data than not enough. =20 Mark S. =20 =20 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: Am I correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil pressure sensor and not an oil temperature sensor? Is the only engine = temperature monitored by the coolant temperature sensor???=20 =20 Bill B =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Ben, you're right in that any one probe does not tell the whole story, = but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature is most important. The oil flow diagrams show = return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft and sprayed inside the rotors = for their cooling. Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil = seals will be damaged by sustained oil temperature >210F. It is also important to use similar instrumentation to other builders = for direct comparison from one installation to the next .=20 I only measure return oil temperature myself; I'd be interested to know = what delta T's (oil) other builders are seeing. Jeff =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe =20 I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender location. One can have a = very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil 'in' = temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have a motor making alot of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not really know it. = Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly what is = happening in the motor in real time... YMMV. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com =20 =20 _____ =20 To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600 From: msteitle@gmail.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Kevin,=20 =20 I think you want to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the = engine. That way you know how close you are to your upper operating limit. If = you have a second input, you can measure the temps after the radiator. =20 Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps after oil has been = through the cooler and is entering the engine. =20 Mark S. =20 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane wrote: in looking for a place to mount a water temp probe I realized my = radiator has a drain plug fitting on the bottom of one of the end tanks that = could work. that portion of the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump. does it matter if I monitor the before or after radiator temps? = the engine sees both, right? =20 same question as to the oil temp probe. the stock oil cooler has a = large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its usage. also have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?] = told that originally had a oil level sender unit in there. kevin =20 =20 _____ =20 Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct = our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA90FC.CE07B390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Keep in mind that that the higher = the DT,= the lower the = average rad temp, the larger rad needed. Optimization studies suggest that the = optimal DT is about 25-30 degrees.  The drop you get is dependant on the flow rate. =  Mazda knew what they were doing when they designed the pump, so if you’ve got = other things right (particularly not too restrictive plumbing) you’ll = get about that DT running at fairly high power.  Similar situation with the oil, you should = see something in the neighborhood of 40 drop.

 

The limiting temps are on the = coolant out of the engine (hottest point, must be kept below boiling); and on = the oil returning (needed to cool the rotors without getting the side seals too = hot. And don’t forget it’s also cooling the gears in the = re-drive.).  The consensus seems to be max of not much over 210 for anything longer = than a few minutes. That suggests the pan temp may get to 240-250. =

 

Early in my test program it was = not unusual that I saw oil temp of 220F during climb on a warm day. It = apparently had no adverse effects.  After changes to the oil cooling it now = peaks about 205.

 

It’s advisable to measure = coolant and oil temp both in and out; as well as air temp in = (OAT) and out. =  You’ll need that info to diagnose coolant system function during initial operation.  Once you have everything working right you may rarely = look at it again.

 

That’s my story, and = I’m sticking to itJ.

 

Al G

 

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:02 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

Hi = George,

 

The = DT is, of course, = the amount of temperature rise you get in your cooling air due to heat = transfer from you heat exchanger.  Recall  Q =3D m * DT * Cp - so a 40F DT simply means you must have more m (air mass flow) than if the DT were 100F.  Since air mass flow =3D Velocity of air * Area (Frontal area = of core in this case)  That would generally mean you either need a radiator = with a larger frontal  area  and/or your velocity of your cooling air = would need to be higher to get the greater air mass flow needed due to a lower = DT.  That = could add to your cooling drag due to the higher air velocity, but so long as the = heat Q being removed is adequate, the engine doesn’t care  what = combination of m and DT = .

 

I have seen = DT of 100F = reported for the radiators by several, but I don’t recall off the top of my = head  DT for the oil cooler.  Perhaps somebody who has measured theirs will report = it.

 

Ed<= /p>

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 6:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

Mark,

That is a great monitoring = system, I would like to do the same thing as you have done one day.  I'm not = sure about how good the 40* delta-T is, I will let someone else comment of = that, maybe Ed A.  as he  mentioned 80-100*F Delta -T for water, = perhaps oil is half of that .

George ( down = under)

Bill,

Since you didn't direct your question to any = specific person, I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up.  = I measure temp and pressure of both the oil and water.  I also = measure water level (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp back into the engine (after the radiator).  So, = from this I can tell how well my exchangers are working.  As an example, I = normally see a 40* delta-T across the oil cooler.  If this drops, my = temps go up and I need to land and find out what's not right.  I also measure coolant pressure.  If pressure is low / = high, I need to investigate. 

 

Is this information overload?  Maybe, = but I would rather have too much data than not enough.

 

Mark S.

 

 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill = Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Am I correct in my assumption that the engine = only has an oil pressure sensor and not an oil temperature sensor?  Is the = only engine temperature monitored by the coolant temperature = sensor??? 

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff = Whaley
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 1:04 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

Ben, you’re right in that any one probe does not tell the whole story, = but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the = input oil temperature is most important.  The oil flow diagrams show = return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft and sprayed inside the rotors for = their cooling.  Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil = seals will be damaged by sustained oil temperature >210F.

It is also important to use similar instrumentation to other builders for = direct comparison from one installation to the next …

I only measure return oil temperature myself; I’d be interested to = know what delta T’s (oil) other builders are seeing.

Jeff<= /font>

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 9:17 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

I respectivly disagree on = the oil temp sender location. One can have a very efficient oil cooler that = removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil  'in' temps are important but,,,, = You could possibly have a motor making alot of oil heat and slowing cooking the = motor over time and not really know it. Just like with the water temp probe. = One needs to know exactly what is happening in the motor in real = time...  YMMV.

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com



 

To: = flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600
From: msteitle@gmail.com
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe

Kevin,

 

I think you want = to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the engine.  That way you = know how close you are to your upper operating limit.  If you have a = second input, you can measure the temps after the radiator.

 

Oil temps are just the = opposite... measure temps after oil has been through the cooler and is entering the = engine.

 

Mark = S. 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at = 12:52 AM, kevin lane <n3773@comcast.net> wrote:

in looking for a = place to mount a water temp probe I realized my radiator has a drain plug fitting = on the bottom of one of the end tanks that could work.  that portion of = the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump.   does it matter = if I monitor the before or after radiator temps?  the engine sees both, = right?   

same question as = to the oil temp probe.  the stock oil cooler has a large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its usage.  also = have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?]  told = that originally had a oil level sender unit in there.   kevin  =

 

Hotmail: Powerful Free = email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.


This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you = have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we = may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.

 

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