Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #48735
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Shutting down Primary injectors was [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where'sthe missing power?
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:23:09 -0400
To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

 Chris,

 

It’s not unusual to have to reach over and temporarily enrich the mixture with  the manual mixture control when switching off the primary injectors (this assumes you have the secondary injectors ON {:>)) at below staging point.  So next time you switch off the primary injectors quickly reach over and enrich the mixture of your secondary injectors.  There seems to be a momentary leaning effect and once running on the secondary has stabilized, I find I can lean it again.

 

My theory is at idle and running on primary injectors only – there is no fuel coming into the combustion chamber from the secondary port/injectors because they are not functioning below staging point. So the secondary air flow is without any fuel in it.   When you turn off the primary injectors you immediately shut off fuel to the engine and it apparently takes a number of milliseconds for the secondary injectors to pump in fuel and for that fuel to flow into the secondary intake port and take over providing fuel for combustion.

 

 

 

Ed

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 1:21 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where'sthe missing power?

 

Only cuz it was mentioned....I usually do achieve about 6000 rpm static.  I am using a 2nd gen turbo block with a medium street port.  I am guessin' the street port brings my static up a bit.  This is with a 2.17 B drive from Tracy and an Ivo in flight adjustable prop set at a fine pitch.  When I go course, it drops about 200 rpm.  Also, depending on temp and my mixture setting, I may not quite achieve 6000 rpm with out manually changing the mixture control to a richer setting.  I have not yet set the map the way it needs to be as I have been getting past some other issues and gremlins.  

 

Today the thing ran pretty damn well...the only gremlin was when I would put it in Mode 1 and shut down the primary injectors, it wanted to die.  I was having fun in Mode 0 running the engine and shutting down various switches in various combinations with Engine behaving as expected.  Donno what the deal is in Mode 1 and the primaries shut down.  More stuff to figure out.

 

Now that I have my new regulator set up and functioning, I purchased new batteries and installed my Dynon D-100 EFIS.  The eclectics seem solid now with a steady power flow and it was fun to play with the EFIS too.

 

Tomorrow, I think I need to focus on cleaning and organizing the hangar...then...to the next thing....

 

FWIW.

 

All the best

 

Chris


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:32 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where'sthe missing power?

Well, George, my take is the wide band sensor would probably do fine just providing a voltage output which is all we use for an air/fuel ratio indication.  However, in a automobile application they are using it to control the CPU and therefore the engine injectors to keep the engine operating at the ratio of 14.7:1.  As I understand it they basically use a saw tooth wave form that’s centered around the 14.7:1 voltage point and compare it to the output of the O2 sensor.  The difference is used to provide a indication to the CPU as to whether to enrich or lean the mixture.

 

  The lead in the gasoline apparently  does not affect the voltage output, but does affect the response time of the sensor to this varying voltage wave form – it slows it down to the point it becomes unable to adequately control the CPU to maintain 14.7:1.

 

So my take is the lead does not apparently affect the voltage output of the sensor just slows it down too much to be useful in its intended application.  But, I could be incorrect in my understanding and about the effects of lead.

 

However, IF Bosch claims it takes 200 hours of leaded fuel  before the wide band is degraded to the point of not being useful in its intended automobile application, then I believe it will last 200 hours as a simply voltage generator for an air/fuel ratio indicator without any problem.  Just that is just conjecture on my part as I have not tested it.

 

If  you have sources on information to the contrary I would appreciate if you would point me to them.

 

Ed

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:38 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Ed,

Yes the leaded gas was what I was alluding to. In the event unleaded isn't available on trips, which I suspect will most likely be the case, the wide band sensor will  degrade and give false readings of air fuel ratios.

Unless your just needing it for the initial set up!?

George ( down under)

George, not an expert on wide band sensors or narrow band for that matter.

 

  But, I do remember being told numerous times that even a few seconds of running on leaded fuel would ruin the sensor.  Well, it might for the purpose it is used in the automobile CPU as I expect the response time slows down due to led fouling.  But, response time that may be way too slow for the CPU wouldn’t even be notice by us Humans.  I have over 160 hours on narrow band O2 sensor running 100LL.

 

Now, here is a link to an article written by a gent who visited the Bosch O2 sensor manufacturing plant in South Carolina. sessions on the dyno and limited use on track, but not for an entire racing season.

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/accessories_electronics/0407sc_bosch/index.html

 

Down about ¾ down the article about the visit there is a summary of Oxygen Sensor Facts -  There he states that Bosch claims the wide band O2 sensor will become degraded after about 200 hour of lead gas.

 

So, from that perspective and for our use as Air/Fuel ratio indicators, it would appear to me that the wide band O2 sensor may be useful for our purposes.  But, must admit I have not tried one out as yet.

 

Ed


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Ed,

Isn't the wide band sensor more prone to giving false readings ( corruption) due to fouling.

George ( down under)

Hi Bill,

 

I could be wrong, but, I’m fairly certain that the position of the Ec2  manual mixture control does not necessarily have any deterministic relationship to air/fuel ratio of the EC2. The resulting air/fuel ratio is a combination of (among other things) the MCT bin (pointed to by manifold pressure)  in which the engine is operating plus the effect of the manual mixture control knob. 

 

The narrow band O2 sensor response curve is pretty crappy for any sort of linear interpolation – but, most have a range of from a few 10 millivolts to approx 1.1 volt.  With the higher voltage 1.0 representing higher air/fuel ratios – somewhere in the vicinity of 12 – 10 :1 air/fuel ratio.  Stioch  (14.7:1) voltage is normally around 0.45 volts (or 450 millvolts) and that is generally the only value that is really rather accurate on a narrow band O2 sensor. 

 

So with my EFISM if the air/fuel ratio indictor is in the middle of its range on the display, it should be yellow in color.  I also have a feature that when looking at the air/fuel indicator screen (the one with fuel flow and fuel used values displayed), if you press button b3 and b4 together you will get displayed in the air/fuel ratio window of the actual voltage being read from the O2 sensor.  So if the EFISM indicator is yellow and in the middle the voltage should read somewhere close to  450 mv.  IF it is green and near the right hand limit the voltage will probably be reading around 900 mv indicating an higher air/fuel ratio.  If red and to the left side then it will be reading less than 450 mv. 

 

However, remember that the curve for the narrow band O2 sensor is not very suitable for interpolation.  The wide band O2 sensor is much better and therefore you can get more accurate indication of air/fuel ratio.

 

So almost all narrow band O2 air/fuel ratio indictors are only useful in giving you a relative indication of leaner or richer.

 

In fact, I am considering a future modification/option/user selectable Narrow band or wide band O2 sensor for the EFISM.  Initially the wide band O2 sensors were in the $250 -$300 range, but now have dropped down to around $80 for the borsch model which makes them more cost feasible.

 

I probably did not answer your question, but that is as close as I could come.

 

Ed

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Good point, Ed.

How much change does the mixture knob on the EC-2/3 allow?  Say for instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle with the mixture knob at the center position, how far would he have to turn the knob to the right to achieve 12.65 AFR?  I ask this because the A/F gage will not read that mixture.  It will be topped out well before that mixture ratio occurs.  How do you determine best power mixture?

Bill B

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

Hi Mike,

 

I guess I’m missing something - If your mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle, then it’s not solely an airflow problem – it appears to me that it’s the lack of sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 A/F ratio then that means you have more oxygen available in your system to support burning more fuel = more power.   You should be able to enrich the mixture particularly at full throttle (assuming you are wanting full power at full throttle) to around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio for best power.  I know you know all of this - that is why I am puzzled by your statement that you feel it’s an airflow problem when on the surface with the Stoich ratio it would appear it’s a lack of sufficient fuel. 

 

 

 

Ed. 

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Sorry for my absence on a topic I started. My nephew had a skateboarding accident last weekend and is in the hospital in a chemically induced coma until his brain swelling is under control. And I thought car powered airplanes were dangerous. Stay away from skateboards.

 

Tracy - My mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect an airflow issue rather than fuel.

 

Al - my vacuum gauge is located in the plenum directly behind the throttle plates.

 

Lynn - I agree that the TB inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. The inlet is also pretty obstructed by the cowl which isnt visible in the pics I sent. I think I'll make an attempt to clean this up some and see if it gets me anywhere. If not I'll live with it for a while.

 

Kelly - always tough to determine if the problem is an engine issue or if the load is simply too much for the engine to overcome. I'm going to experiment with the shallow dive several have suggested and see what happens.

 

Mike

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Since you have the vacuum gauge, this article will help you use it for troubleshooting.

 

 http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2393/article.html

 

Bill B

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

I dont have a regular manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial type vacuum gauge ( I really gotta get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum gauge was indicating 4" of vacuum.

 

Where are you measuring the 4” vacuum?  If it is near the ports it is no unusual; if it is out before the runners; something is wrong.

 

Al



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