X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3888731 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:49:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20091016224919252.UBQF12700@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:49:19 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:49:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01CA4E91.605BE4E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcpOmZWUrA3ROkckS0OhV8hJYREWXgAFwo8Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20091016224919252.UBQF12700@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CA4E91.605BE4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I understand now Bill. I think Al answered your question on how far from 14.7:1 to 9:1 on his controller of his 3 rotor - That's the only information I am aware of about how much twisting of the manual mixture control it may take. I can simply state that with the mixture Knob at 3:00 its too much fuel for my N/A turbo block - so I would say Al's information sounds reasonable to me. Unless Tracy has really changed things with the EC3, there are NO manifold pressure values in any bins (columns of the table) - the manifold pressure (when used) is converted into a "bin" pointer which points to the appropriate bin (numbered from 0 - 128) for that corresponding manifold pressure). That "bin" selected by the manifold pressure value of the engine then contains a fuel factor value represented by the value (height) of the bar in that bin. I believe Tracy's default value is 128 which theoretically would give a 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. Going above that value enriches the mixture and below leans it. IF there are zeros for the values of any of the bins then that says there is no Map correction Table (MCT) correction factor used for that bin. . So if the values of zero are valid, I would assume that for those regions the fuel needed must be derived solely from some other parameter - like RPM with the manifold pressure value only acting as a switch (above below 13Hg for example) But, if that is indeed the case then I'm still a bit surprised there are no MCT values for rpm. There is the possibility that somehow the MCT values for those bins were set to zero accidentally, but as you so rightly surmised, only Tracy can answer the question you have. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:48 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Ed, I don't know if I asked the question properly. The MAP table determines what the injectors will do with the manual mixture control set at the 12:00 oclock position. If you move the manual mixture control counterclockwise, it will lean the mixture from that setting. If you move it clockwise, it will richen it from that setting. My question was: if the MAP table gives 14.7 A/F ratio with the manual knob in the 12:00 oclock position, what would be the most likely A/F ratio with the knob all the way clockwise? Does it have the capability of richening it to 12.65?? Now I have more questions. I went over and copied down the information in my MAP table today. I was surprised to learn that the manifold pressures for all addresses from 0 to 63 were set to Zero. I expected to find actual manifold pressures in there. Starting with addresses 64 through 127 the manifold pressures increase from 10.0 at address 64 in 0.5 inch increments all the way to 41.8 inches at address 127. My engine is naturally aspirated, so the addresses above about 30 or 31 will never be used. I understand that the 0 to 31 addresses are used when the RPM is below 2500 and the manifold pressure is below 13 inches, and that the addresses from 32 to 63 are used when the RPM is between 2500 and 3800 and the manifold pressure is above 13 inches. But I still don't understand how the controller would know which address to use with no manifold pressures entered in the table. Does anyone know if this is OK? I assume that Tracy is still in Colorado, so I don't expect that he will be covering this. I also discovered that staging was not set. At least, there is never an astrick showing up above the V in Volt. I assume I can not change the staging unless the engine is running??? All this was done with the engine not running if that matters for any of the data. My Renesis engine has not been torn down, so it still has the factory nominal timing setting. Does anyone know what this setting is?? The timing adjustment setting on the EC-2 is set to Zero. Due to some of the recent discussions on timing, I am thinking that may have been a factor in not making as much power as others when static running. I have been only able to get 53-5400 rpm, while others could get over 6000. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:06 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Hi Bill, I could be wrong, but, I'm fairly certain that the position of the Ec2 manual mixture control does not necessarily have any deterministic relationship to air/fuel ratio of the EC2. The resulting air/fuel ratio is a combination of (among other things) the MCT bin (pointed to by manifold pressure) in which the engine is operating plus the effect of the manual mixture control knob. The narrow band O2 sensor response curve is pretty crappy for any sort of linear interpolation - but, most have a range of from a few 10 millivolts to approx 1.1 volt. With the higher voltage 1.0 representing higher air/fuel ratios - somewhere in the vicinity of 12 - 10 :1 air/fuel ratio. Stioch (14.7:1) voltage is normally around 0.45 volts (or 450 millvolts) and that is generally the only value that is really rather accurate on a narrow band O2 sensor. So with my EFISM if the air/fuel ratio indictor is in the middle of its range on the display, it should be yellow in color. I also have a feature that when looking at the air/fuel indicator screen (the one with fuel flow and fuel used values displayed), if you press button b3 and b4 together you will get displayed in the air/fuel ratio window of the actual voltage being read from the O2 sensor. So if the EFISM indicator is yellow and in the middle the voltage should read somewhere close to 450 mv. IF it is green and near the right hand limit the voltage will probably be reading around 900 mv indicating an higher air/fuel ratio. If red and to the left side then it will be reading less than 450 mv. However, remember that the curve for the narrow band O2 sensor is not very suitable for interpolation. The wide band O2 sensor is much better and therefore you can get more accurate indication of air/fuel ratio. So almost all narrow band O2 air/fuel ratio indictors are only useful in giving you a relative indication of leaner or richer. In fact, I am considering a future modification/option/user selectable Narrow band or wide band O2 sensor for the EFISM. Initially the wide band O2 sensors were in the $250 -$300 range, but now have dropped down to around $80 for the borsch model which makes them more cost feasible. I probably did not answer your question, but that is as close as I could come. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Good point, Ed. How much change does the mixture knob on the EC-2/3 allow? Say for instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle with the mixture knob at the center position, how far would he have to turn the knob to the right to achieve 12.65 AFR? I ask this because the A/F gage will not read that mixture. It will be topped out well before that mixture ratio occurs. How do you determine best power mixture? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Hi Mike, I guess I'm missing something - If your mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle, then it's not solely an airflow problem - it appears to me that it's the lack of sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 A/F ratio then that means you have more oxygen available in your system to support burning more fuel = more power. You should be able to enrich the mixture particularly at full throttle (assuming you are wanting full power at full throttle) to around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio for best power. I know you know all of this - that is why I am puzzled by your statement that you feel it's an airflow problem when on the surface with the Stoich ratio it would appear it's a lack of sufficient fuel. Ed. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Sorry for my absence on a topic I started. My nephew had a skateboarding accident last weekend and is in the hospital in a chemically induced coma until his brain swelling is under control. And I thought car powered airplanes were dangerous. Stay away from skateboards. Tracy - My mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect an airflow issue rather than fuel. Al - my vacuum gauge is located in the plenum directly behind the throttle plates. Lynn - I agree that the TB inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. The inlet is also pretty obstructed by the cowl which isnt visible in the pics I sent. I think I'll make an attempt to clean this up some and see if it gets me anywhere. If not I'll live with it for a while. Kelly - always tough to determine if the problem is an engine issue or if the load is simply too much for the engine to overcome. I'm going to experiment with the shallow dive several have suggested and see what happens. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? Since you have the vacuum gauge, this article will help you use it for troubleshooting. http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2393/article.html Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power? I dont have a regular manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial type vacuum gauge ( I really gotta get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum gauge was indicating 4" of vacuum. Where are you measuring the 4" vacuum? If it is near the ports it is no unusual; if it is out before the runners; something is wrong. Al __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CA4E91.605BE4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok, I understand now Bill.  I = think Al answered your question on how far from 14.7:1 to 9:1 on his = controller of his 3 rotor – That’s the only information I am aware of = about how much twisting of the manual mixture control it may take.  I can = simply state that with the mixture Knob at 3:00 its too much fuel for my N/A = turbo block – so I would say Al’s information sounds reasonable to = me.

 

Unless Tracy has really changed = things with the EC3, there are NO manifold pressure values in any bins (columns = of the table) – the manifold pressure (when used) is converted into a = “bin”  pointer which points to the appropriate bin (numbered from 0 = – 128) for that corresponding manifold pressure).  That “bin” = selected by the manifold pressure value of the engine then contains a fuel factor = value represented by the value (height) of the bar in that bin.  I = believe Tracy’s = default value is 128 which theoretically would give a 14.7:1 air/fuel = ratio.  Going above that value enriches the mixture and below leans = it.

 

 IF there are zeros for the = values  of any of the bins then that says there is no Map correction Table (MCT) correction factor used for that bin. .  So if the values of zero = are valid,  I would assume that for those regions the fuel needed must = be derived solely from some other parameter – like RPM with the = manifold pressure value only acting as a switch (above below 13Hg for = example)

But, if that is indeed the case = then I’m still a bit surprised there are no MCT values for rpm.  =

 

 

There is the possibility that = somehow the MCT values for those bins were set to zero accidentally, but as you so = rightly surmised, only Tracy can answer the question you have.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 3:48 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing = power?

 

Ed,

I don’t know if I asked the question properly.  The = MAP table determines what the injectors will do with the manual mixture = control set at the 12:00 oclock position.  If you move the manual mixture = control counterclockwise, it will lean the mixture from that setting.  If = you move it clockwise, it will richen it from that setting.  My question = was:  if the MAP table gives 14.7 A/F ratio with the manual knob in the 12:00 = oclock position, what would be the most likely A/F ratio with the knob all the = way clockwise?  Does it have the capability of richening it to = 12.65??

 

Now I have more questions.  I went over and copied down the information in my MAP table today.  I was surprised to learn that = the manifold pressures for all addresses from 0 to 63 were set to = Zero.  I expected to find actual manifold pressures in there.  Starting with addresses 64 through 127 the manifold pressures increase from 10.0 at = address 64 in 0.5 inch increments all the way to 41.8 inches at address = 127.  My engine is naturally aspirated, so the addresses above about 30 or 31 = will never be used.  I understand that the 0 to 31 addresses are used when the = RPM is below 2500 and the manifold pressure is below 13 inches, and that the = addresses from 32 to 63 are used when the RPM is between 2500 and 3800 and the = manifold pressure is above 13 inches.  But I still don’t understand = how the controller would know which address to use with no manifold pressures = entered in the table.  Does  anyone know if this is OK?  I assume = that Tracy is still in Colorado, so I don’t expect that he will be covering this. =

 

I also discovered that staging was not set.  At least, = there is never an astrick showing up above the V in Volt.  I assume I can = not change the staging unless the engine is running???   All this = was done with the engine not running if that matters for any of the = data.

 

My Renesis engine has not been torn down, so it still has the = factory nominal timing setting.  Does anyone know what this setting = is??  The timing adjustment setting on the EC-2 is set to Zero.  Due to some = of the recent discussions on timing, I am thinking that may have been a factor = in not making as much power as others when static running.  I have been = only able to get 53-5400 rpm, while others could get over = 6000.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 10:06 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing = power?

Hi = Bill,

 

I could be wrong, but, I’m = fairly certain that the position of the Ec2  manual mixture control does = not necessarily have any deterministic relationship to air/fuel ratio of the EC2. The = resulting air/fuel ratio is a combination of (among other things) the MCT bin = (pointed to by manifold pressure)  in which the engine is operating plus the = effect of the manual mixture control knob. 

 

The narrow band O2 sensor response = curve is pretty crappy for any sort of linear interpolation – but, most = have a range of from a few 10 millivolts to approx 1.1 volt.  With the = higher voltage 1.0 representing higher air/fuel ratios – somewhere in the vicinity of 12 – 10 :1 air/fuel ratio.  Stioch  (14.7:1) voltage is normally around 0.45 volts (or 450 millvolts) and that is = generally the only value that is really rather accurate on a narrow band O2 = sensor. 

  =

So with my EFISM if the air/fuel = ratio indictor is in the middle of its range on the display, it should be = yellow in color.  I also have a feature that when looking at the air/fuel = indicator screen (the one with fuel flow and fuel used values displayed), if you = press button b3 and b4 together you will get displayed in the air/fuel ratio = window of the actual voltage being read from the O2 sensor.  So if the = EFISM indicator is yellow and in the middle the voltage should read somewhere = close to  450 mv.  IF it is green and near the right hand limit the = voltage will probably be reading around 900 mv indicating an higher air/fuel ratio.  If red and to the left side then it will be reading less = than 450 mv. 

 

However, remember that the curve = for the narrow band O2 sensor is not very suitable for interpolation.  The = wide band O2 sensor is much better and therefore you can get more accurate indication of air/fuel ratio.

 

So almost all narrow band O2 = air/fuel ratio indictors are only useful in giving you a relative indication of = leaner or richer.

 

In fact, I am considering a future modification/option/user selectable Narrow band or wide band O2 sensor = for the EFISM.  Initially the wide band O2 sensors were in the $250 -$300 = range, but now have dropped down to around $80 for the borsch model which makes = them more cost feasible.

 

I probably did not answer your = question, but that is as close as I could come.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 8:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing = power?

 

Good point, Ed.

How much change does the mixture knob on the EC-2/3 allow?  = Say for instance, if Mike was at 14.7 at full throttle with the mixture knob = at the center position, how far would he have to turn the knob to the right to = achieve 12.65 AFR?  I ask this because the A/F gage will not read that mixture.  It will be topped out well before that mixture ratio occurs.  How do you determine best power = mixture?

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 16, = 2009 8:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Stoich A/F Ratio?? : [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing = power?

Hi = Mike,

 

I guess I’m missing something = - If your mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle, then it’s not = solely an airflow problem – it appears to me that it’s the lack of sufficient fuel. IF you are at stoich 14.7:1 A/F ratio then that means = you have more oxygen available in your system to support burning more fuel =3D = more power.   You should be able to enrich the mixture particularly = at full throttle (assuming you are wanting full power at full throttle) to = around 12.65:1 air/fuel ratio for best power.  I know you know all of this = - that is why I am puzzled by your statement that you feel it’s an = airflow problem when on the surface with the Stoich ratio it would appear it’s a = lack of sufficient fuel. 

 

 

 

Ed.  =

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Thursday, October = 15, 2009 11:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the missing power?

 

Sorry for my absence on a topic I started. My = nephew had a skateboarding accident last weekend and is in the hospital in a chemically induced coma until his brain swelling is under control. And I thought car powered airplanes were dangerous. Stay away from = skateboards.

 

Tracy - My mixture monitor shows stoich at full throttle. I suspect an airflow = issue rather than fuel.

 

Al - my vacuum gauge is located in the plenum = directly behind the throttle plates.

 

Lynn - I agree that the TB inlet is horrible and needs a bell mouth. The inlet is also = pretty obstructed by the cowl which isnt visible in the pics I sent. I think = I'll make an attempt to clean this up some and see if it gets me anywhere. If not = I'll live with it for a while.

 

Kelly - always tough to determine if the problem is = an engine issue or if the load is simply too much for the engine to = overcome. I'm going to experiment with the shallow dive several have suggested and see = what happens.

 

Mike

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: = Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:21 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: where's the missing power?

 

Since you have the vacuum gauge, this article will help you use = it for troubleshooting.

 

 http://autospeed.co= m/cms/A_2393/article.html

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al = Gietzen
Sent: Tuesday, October = 13, 2009 7:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = where's the missing power?

I dont have a regular = manifold pressure gauge, just an industrial type vacuum gauge ( I really gotta = get an MP gauge). Anyway, the vacuum gauge was indicating 4" of = vacuum.

 

Where are you measuring the = 4” vacuum?  If it is near the ports it is no unusual; if it is out = before the runners; something is wrong.

 

Al



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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