X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3861955 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:17:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.56; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1253614623; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=aI+wxV taEtxQCsxGe1v4g7AJ8EDhE19nI8dFvRwk3qg=; b=Ks1cB9OSk51FJjEmjyGPjv3tq KyEwy+N3qgQBx9IDfqb9XSLYCb6PCtrdh/Hl+a39MF8SnGNW9J8zo2gqulscg== Received: from fwebmail10.isp.att.net ([204.127.218.110]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20090922101627H0600ll22ae>; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:16:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.218.110] Received: from [208.114.37.249] by fwebmail10.isp.att.net; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:16:27 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Progress report from Houston Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:16:27 +0000 Message-Id: <092220091016.1668.4AB8A3FB0006AFB90000068422230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_1668_1253614587_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_1668_1253614587_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George, Use a "TES" (Teflon Encapsulated Silicone) "O" ring !!............... -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" : -------------- To all, I suspected that was the best method after speaking to Bill over the years. Just exactly how it's done is still not clear to me, however it is repairable in the event of a leak. I suspect it's heat cycling that does the damage. George ( down under) George, Mark, and group, The proper way to seal the tubes is with a flexible seal method. The way to make the seal is a captured full compression o-ring seal. Use a flanged tube and a full captured o-ring on two sides. You can use a little JB weld to blend the exterior. The flange is bolted to the outside. Any potted seal will eventually crack and leak. I don't think additional plates will prevent that. Bill Jepson Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From: "George Lendich" Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:04:56 +1000 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Progress report from Houston Mark, I didn't see where the screws were placed, are they at the outer corners of the plate? George ( down under) George, What I like about the plate is that if it leaks you can remove it, clean it up, and re-seal it. You can't do that if it is welded in place. Besides, it is held in place with four 1/4-20 screws. Mark On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:03 PM, George Lendich wrote: Mark, I like that plate, it gives added support to the manifold. It may be better welded on- then again there's the distortion issue. George ( down under) No, they're plates that fit over the 2" SS tubes and bolt to the rotor housing. You use RTV to make a seal between the sealing plate, rotor housing and SS tube. Look closely at the picture I posted, and then check the web link. The web page shows the entire process start to finish. http://www.rotaryeng.net/Welded-steel-p-port.html Mark On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:39 PM, George Lendich wrote: Mark, What are PL's sealing plates are these the sides plates he uses to pressure the sealant? George ( down under) Kelly, Yes, I TIG welded them to the inner liner, then used PL's sealing plates and Ultra Grey RTV to seal off the coolant. I plan to pressure test them prior to assembly. Mark On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Mark, Have you made any decisions on the retension/sealing method for your 20B "P" port inserts ?? -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from Mark Steitle : -------------- Bill, I'm not sure what's changed, but my oil temps are up from what I reported earlier. I routinely see 220-225 on climbout, then they settle down to 200 in cruise. Maybe I'm producing more hp now, or maybe the earlier temperature report was not in mid-summer, or possibly my system is not cooling as well as it did earlier. I'm just glad that I installed TES o-rings throughout. My cowl flap initially had an aluminum lip, that protruded into the airstream about 1". This was a quick and dirty test to see the result. I couldn't open or close it, it was open all the time. I have since replaced the 1" lip with a servo-controlled door so I can open/close as desired. When closed it is the same as a stock cowl. This is very helpful in cooler climates, not so much during triple-digit Texas summer months. I also added an "airfoil shaped" piece on the firewall directly above the cowl flap opening. This was done in the hope of helping coax the heated air out of the cowl. But I didn't detect any great improvement in cooling. Oh, well. Next thing I plan on adding is small air dams on each end of the flap door. The idea here is to promote more efficient airflow out of the cowl flap. I've heard that these make a big difference. We'll see. If you are considering installing a cowl flap, you may want to consider locating it on the side, or possibly install one on each side, back near the firewall. This would allow you to make the opening larger, and this location may be in a lower pressure area than the bottom, especially during climbout. Just a thought. Cooling is still marginal in the Texas heat, and it will be worse with the new P-port 20B engine. So, I may be forced to make some major changes to get the more powerful engine to cool, or else be forced to throttle back during climbout. I've been considering relocating the radiator from under the engine to the cool side of the engine (fore/aft). This would allow me to use a slightly larger radiator. It would clean up the plumbing and significantly shorten the cooling lines too. No, I haven't experienced SAG. But then I'm running Renesis type irridium spark plugs. I'm at 143 hours now. Personally, I won't use anything else. Mark --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_1668_1253614587_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_1668_1253614587_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_1668_1253614587_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
George,
   Use a "TES" (Teflon Encapsulated Silicone) "O" ring !!...= ............
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from "George Lendich" <le= ndich@aanet.com.au>: --------------

=  
To all,
I suspected that was the best method after= speaking to Bill over the years. Just exactly how it's done is still not c= lear to me, however it is repairable in the event of a leak. I suspect it's=   heat cycling that does the damage.
George ( down under)
George, Mar= k, and group,
The proper way to seal the tubes is with a flexible seal m= ethod. The way to make the seal is a captured full compression o-ring seal.= Use a flanged tube and a full captured o-ring on two sides. You can use a = little JB weld to blend the exterior. The flange is bolted to the outside. = Any potted seal will eventually crack and leak. I don't think additional pl= ates will prevent that.
Bill Jepson=20

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "George Lendich"
Date: Tue, 2= 2 Sep 2009 14:04:56 +1000
To: Rotary motors in aircraft<flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Progress repor= t from Houston

Mark,
I didn't see where the screws were placed,= are they at the outer corners of the plate?
George ( down under)
George,
 
What I like about the plate is that if it leaks you can remo= ve it, clean it up, and re-seal it.  You can't do that if it is welded= in place.  Besides, it is held in place with four 1/4-20 screws.
 
Mark

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:03 PM, George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com= .au> wrote:
 Mark,
I like that plate, it gives added support = to the manifold. It may be better welded on- then again there's the distort= ion issue.
George ( down under)
No, they're plates that fit over the 2" SS tubes and bolt to the rotor= housing.  You use RTV to make a seal between the sealing plate, = rotor housing and SS tube.  Look closely at the picture I posted, and = then check the web link.  The web page shows the entire process start = to finish.  http://www.rotaryeng.net/Welded-steel-p-port.html
 
Mark

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:39 PM, George Lendich <l= endich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark,
What are PL's sealing plates are thes= e the sides plates he uses to pressure the sealant?
George ( down under)
Kelly,
 
Yes, I TIG welded them to the inner liner, then used PL's sealing plat= es and Ultra Grey RTV to seal off the coolant.  I plan to pressur= e test them prior to assembly.
 
Mark

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@at= t.net> wrote:
Mark,
  Have you made any decisions on the retension/sealing method for= your 20B "P" port inserts ??
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/E= C2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
-------------- Original message from Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>:= --------------

Bill,
 
I'm not sure what's changed, but my oil temps are up from what I repor= ted earlier.  I routinely see 220-225 on climbout, then they settle do= wn to 200 in cruise.  Maybe I'm producing more hp now, or maybe the ea= rlier temperature report was not in mid-summer, or possibly my system is no= t cooling as well as it did earlier.  I'm just glad that I instal= led TES o-rings throughout. 
My cowl flap initially had an aluminum lip, that protruded into t= he airstream about 1".  This was a quick and dirty test to see th= e result.  I couldn't open or close it, it was open all the time.=   I have since replaced the 1" lip with a servo-controlled door s= o I can open/close as desired.  When closed it is the same as a stock = cowl.  This is very helpful in cooler climates, not so much during tri= ple-digit Texas summer months.
 
I also added an "airfoil shaped" piece on the firewall directly above = the cowl flap opening.  This was done in the hope of helping= coax the heated air out of the cowl.  But I didn't detect a= ny great improvement in cooling.  Oh, well.  Next thing I pl= an on adding is small air dams on each end of the flap door.  The idea= here is to promote more efficient airflow out of the cowl flap.  I've= heard that these make a big difference.  We'll see.  =20
 
If you are considering installing a cowl flap, you may want to conside= r locating it on the side, or possibly install one on each s= ide, back near the firewall.  This would allow you to make the op= ening larger, and this location may be in a lower press= ure area than the bottom, especially during climbout.  Just a tho= ught.
 
Cooling is still marginal in the Texas heat, and it will be = worse with the new P-port 20B engine.  So, I may be forced to mak= e some major changes to get the more powerful engine to cool, or else = be forced to throttle back during climbout.  I've been considerin= g relocating the radiator from under the engine to the cool side = of the engine (fore/aft).  This would allow me to use a slightly large= r radiator.  It would clean up the plumbing and significantly shorten = the cooling lines too.   
No, I haven't experienced SAG.  But then I'm running Renesis type= irridium spark plugs.  I'm at 143 hours now.  Personally, I won'= t use anything else. 
 
Mark
 



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