X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860643 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:44:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090921034415.KACA21192.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:44:15 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.90.215]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id jFkB1c00B4emyWU04FkD01; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:44:14 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=5RvM0Nif2WQA:10 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=cEsSX396AAAA:8 a=g6Fm8j_yrG3F_b1Sk5MA:9 a=tuunhlJeCvEkpExLxUYA:7 a=dQZnKj3aeUtUpy6KvbiAhtjbtWMA:4 a=Xs21W9NlLssA:10 a=CzG_uCeGblAA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=a5-OGnwyBokA:10 a=Gq2C-Y4ahsakhFAR:21 a=euaCksYisWxaG1Ox:21 a=pcLIrrrKAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=3i0CAJ27bZ8QzXU0JkkA:9 a=oGROSIKdg91FtABb7kYA:7 a=r7iq_ec8ejpy0YMOwjpeIzhh-h0A:4 a=ftFGBYpk1mUA:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:44:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01CA3A33.1C14AAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01CA3A33.1C14AAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm with John on this. One drop of oil coming out of the cowl will = obscure the canopy. I have first hand experience with this in a Cessna = 140 I used to fly. It had a leaking prop seal and just a couple of drops = completely coated the windscreen. Had to look out the side window to = land it. Mike Wills ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 5:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments Tracy, any oil leaks will be self evident on the windshield and a = constant pain to clean, so I would advise against any discharge on the = cowling top. JohnD ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:51 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments "No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across = the radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the = cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to = be zero. " It was not zero but low. about 1.2" H2O. This is at 120 MPH BTW. = This was with cowl flap open. The reference is to the aircraft static = system so it should be accurate. Have not measured the front side of = heat exchangers yet but I assumed diffusers were working well based on = cowl off flight test. Will have to verify this of course. Just finished the VG flight test. No measurable difference. Also flew with the inlet fairings off (which enlarges the inlets a = bit). Slightly better cooling but not the answer. =20 I'm trying to restrain myself from chopping up the cowl to install = the louvers. I can't see how they would help much, especially on the = bottom of cowl. Maybe on the top? Somebody STOP me! Tracy=20 On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across = the radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the = cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to = be zero. It the pressure under the cowl is truly zero, there will be = little or no velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs will not help. = Al? said he had his cowl pressure at 5 inches to help speed the air = back up as it goes out. Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:03 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments "It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose = connections...no doubt on this. " Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the = years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are = almost always caused by false assumptions. It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts = but the mathematical odds are staggeringly small. You haven't offered = your test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I = were betting, I'd put my money on something else. The assumptions about = the wiring might need examination as well. This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had. The oil was = showing up on the back side of one of his rads. There was an oil line = running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was = made that the oil line was leaking. Long story short, the oil leak was = actually coming from something at the opposite end of the engine. What = exactly was it Ed? It defied all logic in that it was not even close to = where it showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow = under the cowl. =20 Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing = away all my own assumptions. I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and = fixed it in the open position. The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 = 1/2 " below where it was. The temperatures were down a little but not = near what I wanted. Only a little better than the big giant opening I = tried. At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the = airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet. Keep in mind that my = working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to = allow good airflow through radiator and oil cooler. I had installed a = pressure probe under the cowl but forgot to look at the reading. = Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I had, I made another = flight to check the under cowl pressure. Duhh, almost nothing! = Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and = everything looked OK. I need to check pressure in a few other spots to = be sure about this. There is something odd going on with airflow under = the cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again. One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in = cooling by installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet. = This is so non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its = so easy to try I might have to do it while scratching my head. Tracy . On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber = wrote: Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the = advice here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested = here and in the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no = priming and it started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down = and started back up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock = position....and it started fine. Kewl. The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount = and installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it = leaking at the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since = replacing the filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye = cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 = filter). But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It = IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no = doubt on this. I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other = engines but I would not think it would be so much that it is = overwhelming this standard mount and seal. This is just a standard = screw on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the USA. Looks like = many others I have seen. Y'all have any ideas. =20 Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be = a welder by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless = turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my = manifold.. As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I = had wold work if mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil = return being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) = to the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will = have to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me = proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral = intake fuel rail. So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I = had, based on John Slades suggestion. My welder friend said it would = not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which should = allow it to miss the fuel rail completly. We looked at the options and = he took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the old wastgate = extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days. Kewl. The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I = even transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it = worked fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about = the lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. = Huh? It will not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is = clear. I decided to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's = diagnostice test. Damn, no chattering of the injectors (even though I = was able to hear an individual click when I primed it). Put on a test = plug and wire and got no spark. All the other electrics are working = fine.=20 I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector = clattering away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on = Rotor one did not seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector = that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few = seconds and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues. = Damn, I though I had really gotten past most of those. I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The = other electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are = not. Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there = own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, = it is the same on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped = for the night and decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk = (she was actually gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for = a few hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too = much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all that bad I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. = Upon my return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow = night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. As always my friends, Thanks. All the best, Chris Barber Houston Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or = previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information = that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the = person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any = of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is = STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, = please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy = the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. = Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01CA3A33.1C14AAA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm with John on this. One drop of oil = coming out=20 of the cowl will obscure the canopy. I have first hand experience = with this=20 in a Cessna 140 I used to fly. It had a leaking prop seal and just a = couple of=20 drops completely coated the windscreen. Had to look out the side = window to=20 land it.
 
Mike Wills
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John
Sent: Sunday, September 20, = 2009 5:13=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another mixed=20 day / Cooling experiments

Tracy, any oil leaks will be self = evident on the=20 windshield and a constant pain to clean, so I would advise against any = discharge on the cowling top.  JohnD
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, September 20, = 2009 6:51=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another mixed=20 day / Cooling experiments

"No = air=20 pressure under the cowl??  What is the pressure drop across the = radiator?  What is the zero pressure referenced to?  If it = is the=20 cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference = to be=20 zero. "

It was not zero but = low.  about 1.2" H2O.  This is at 120 MPH BTW.  =   =20 This was with cowl flap open.  The reference is to the aircraft = static=20 system so it should be accurate.  Have not measured the front = side of=20 heat exchangers yet but I assumed diffusers were working well based = on cowl=20 off flight test.  Will have to verify this of = course.

Just=20 finished the VG flight test.  No measurable = difference.

Also=20 flew with the inlet fairings off (which enlarges the inlets a = bit). =20 Slightly better cooling but not the answer. 

I'm trying = to=20 restrain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the = louvers.  I=20 can't see how they would help much, especially on the bottom of = cowl. =20 Maybe on the top?  Somebody STOP me!

Tracy

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bill = Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= =20 wrote:

No=20 air pressure under the cowl??  What is the pressure drop = across the=20 radiator?  What is the zero pressure referenced to?  If = it is=20 the cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the = difference=20 to be zero.  It the pressure under the cowl is truly zero, = there will=20 be little or no velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs will = not=20 help.   Al? said he had his cowl pressure at 5 inches to = help=20 speed the air back up as it goes out.

 

Bill=20 B

 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy = Crook
Sent: Sunday, September 20, = 2009 9:03=20 AM=20


To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling=20 experiments

"It IS seeping from the filter = seal and NOT=20 the two hose connections...no doubt on this.=20 "

Just from observing many rotary = installation=20 'de-bugings' over the years (including my own) I noticed that = difficult to=20 solve problems are almost always caused by false = assumptions.

It is=20 possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but = the=20 mathematical  odds are staggeringly small.  You haven't = offered=20 your test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but = if I were=20 betting, I'd put my money on something else.  The assumptions = about=20 the wiring might need examination as well.

This reminds me = of an=20 oil leak the Ed Anderson had.  The oil was showing up on the = back=20 side of one of his rads.  There was an oil line running very = close=20 (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that = the oil=20 line was leaking.  Long story short, the oil leak was = actually coming=20 from something at the opposite end of the engine.  What = exactly was=20 it Ed?  It defied all logic in that it was not even close to = where it=20 showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow = under the=20 cowl.  

Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling=20 experiments are blowing away all my own assumptions.   I = kluged up=20 the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it in the open position.  = The=20 trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below  where it = was. =20 The temperatures were down a little but not near what I = wanted.  Only=20 a little better than the big giant opening I tried.  At this = point I=20 was ready to conclude that the underside of the airplane was bad = place to=20 put a cooling outlet.  Keep in mind that my working = assumption is=20 that the pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good airflow = through=20 radiator and oil cooler.  I had installed a pressure probe = under the=20 cowl but forgot to look at the reading.   Figuring I = might as=20 well know how big a problem I had, I made another flight to check = the=20 under cowl pressure.  Duhh,  almost nothing!  = Checked the=20 probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and = everything looked=20 OK.   I need to check pressure in a few other spots to = be sure=20 about this.  There is something odd going on with airflow = under the=20 cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again.

One = builder on the=20 RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by installing VGs = on the=20 trailing edge of the cooling outlet.  This is so = non-intuitive that I=20 can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to try I might = have to do=20 it while scratching my head.

Tracy
.


On=20 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@bellairepolice.com> = wrote:

Made = it out to=20 the hangar for most the day and decided to take the advice here = and modify=20 my start up routine based on what was suggested here and in the=20 manual.  So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming = and it=20 started up in a few blades.  Ran for a while, shut down and = started=20 back up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it = started=20 fine.  Kewl.

 

The first bad news = is that I=20 replaced my romote oil filter mount and installed a new = filter.  As I=20 have mentioned here I have had it leaking at the rubber filter = seal. =20 The old one looked ok, but since replacing the filters no less = than three=20 times and knowing that the eye cannot see all inperfections, = I=20 replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter).  But, NO = JOY. It=20 is still leaking where the filter mounts.  It IS seeping from = the=20 filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on = this.  I=20 know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but I = would=20 not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this = standard mount=20 and seal.  This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount = made out=20 of AL...Made in the USA.  Looks like many others I have = seen. =20 Y'all have any ideas. 

 

Second good thing = is a guy=20 from a few hangars down turns out to be a welder by trade.  = He came=20 down as I was working on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold = the=20 other day after offering to help me modify my manifold..  As = was=20 mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I had wold work = if=20 mounted upside down.  It puts the turbo lower (the oil return = being=20 about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to the = rear of=20 the engine and it clears my aileron control link.  I will = have to=20 make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper = clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake = fuel=20 rail.  So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I = had,=20 based on John Slades suggestion.  My welder friend said it = would not=20 be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which = should allow=20 it to miss the fuel rail completly.  We looked at the options = and he=20 took the manifold with him saying he would cut off the old = wastgate=20 extention and come back to fit the new part on in a few days.=20 Kewl.

 

The=20 second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning.  I = even=20 transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it = worked=20 fine.  HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good = about the=20 lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. = Huh?  It will not restart.  I checke the first fuel = filter and=20 it is clear.  I decided to start at the beginning and just = run the=20 EC2's diagnostice test.  Damn, no chattering of the injectors = (even=20 though I was able to hear an individual click when I primed = it).  Put=20 on a test plug and wire and got no spark.  All the other = electrics are working fine.

 

I=20 pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector = clattering=20 away and spark on three of the inectors.  The secondary on = Rotor one=20 did not seem to fire.  Hmmmmm?  I put on an extra = injector that=20 I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few = seconds=20 and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues.  = Damn, I=20 though I had really gotten past most of = those.

 

I am=20 really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down.  The = other=20 electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are=20 not.  Strange since I thought each items (injectors and = coils) had=20 there own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like=20 this.  Yes, it is the same on A and B.  Currently I am = very=20 discouraged so I stopped for the night and decided to crawl into = bed with=20 a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious enough to hang out = in the=20 hangar with me for a few hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me = from=20 sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all = that bad=20 <g>

 

I=20 anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from = y'all.  Upon=20 my return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully = tomorrow=20 night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor,=20 wiring.

 

As=20 always my friends, Thanks.

 

All=20 the best,

 

Chris=20 Barber

Houston


Warning: This e-mail transmission, = and any=20 documents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain=20 confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are = not the=20 intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to = the=20 intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying,=20 distribution or use of any of the information contained in or = attached to=20 this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received = this=20 transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone = at=20 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its = attachments=20 without reading them. Thank you.

 

=
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