X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3836735 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:34:00 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.102; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1252089241; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=z2K2sr ux+WKAjzHA191zSxGsJDbCHyoU+LecFem874Q=; b=pQBHksZiCfnU3iFv01Cg0DYtk KwHULotbIhFJato7WI5tqZntDHTUsCCgDnejDp3EVd9bNJLXFqntkXu8EirWA== Received: from fwebmail16.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.116]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20090904183325H0200r9r2ce>; Fri, 4 Sep 2009 18:33:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.116] Received: from [208.114.45.105] by fwebmail16.isp.att.net; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:33:25 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: 2 stroke buildup in sump Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:33:25 +0000 Message-Id: <090420091833.8653.4AA15D7500045B6B000021CD22218801869B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8653_1252089205_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8653_1252089205_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, I stand educated !!...........So much for theories...............Thanks Are we going to hear about an RV8/20B getting into the air this weekend ??.= ................ =20=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Tracy Crook = : --------------=20 Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from that angle Tracy...= ........Are rotor side seals there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain compres= sion , or a combination of both.....I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings................ SNIP Kelly Kelly, Since you mentioned the O-rings, I am assuming you meant the oil co= ntrol rings, not the side seals in my last reply. Side seals of course hav= e no O-rings. Side seals hydroplane over the oil in both directions. Oil = seals do it in only 1 direction. Tracy (terminology is such a bitch) On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Tracy, Yvon Group, s Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from that angle Tracy...= ........Are rotor side seals there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain compres= sion , or a combination of both..............I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings would allow = excess 2 stroke oil past them by essentially riding over the oil film (hydroplaning) at high rpm........= .....=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Tracy Crook = : --------------=20 I could be wrong, but the newer and better the rotor oil control rings are,= the more oil is recovered from the sidewalls when using 2 stroke in the fu= el. A worn engine would probably leave more oil in the chamber to be burne= d thus eliminating the oil buildup in the pan. Tracy On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Yvon Cournoyer wrot= e: New (overhauled) engine purchased from a Mazda dealer. Air time 95 hrs. Gro= und time about half as much. I fly a 2.105:1 cogbelt PSRU. My aircraft is a= Zenair Zenith. Yvon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:16 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade Yvon, Was your 13B freshly overhauled when you began flying and how many hours = in the air currently..............Condition of the rotor side seals and their = "O" rings plus side plate wear steps are the main controlling factors + the percentage of = 2 stroke oil............As the engine rotor side seals, "O" rings and side plates we= ar then more of the 2 stroke oil will get past them and into the oil sump........... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Yvon Cournoyer := --------------=20 I have been using a ratio of 1:140 for some time and still getting an incre= ase in the oil pan. I do not run above 5500-5600 engine rpm. My engine is a= 1986 13B. Yvon. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:04 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade Just talked to John again. Engine emergency caused by clogged fuel filters= (John mentioned debris caused by some fuel tank work of some sort?). Saw= fuel pressure fluctuations on EM2 and increased EGTs then rpm started fall= ing. After landing, John found the clogged filters & cleaned them out. T= hat procedure called for closing a shutoff valve from the tanks. After cle= aning the filters, he forgot to turn the shutoff valves back on, hence the = failure to start. He eventually noticed that fuel pressure was super low a= nd that eventually jogged the memory of the shutoff valves. After openin= g them, the engine started immediately.=20=20 The RPM anomaly is still a mystery & I didn't think to ask him if that was = back to normal. I'm sure we will hear more later. I'm kind of amazed that= the engine still had good compression after 50 gallons of fuel with no oil= added was used.=20 Just random thoughts: I'm thinking I should cut back on the amount of oil= I add. I'm still accumulating 2 stroke in the crankcase when using 3/4 oz= per gallon of gas. Think I'll go to 1/2 oz / gal. on Renesis. Peripheral= exhaust port 13Bs need more oil than Renesis but 1 oz/gal is probably over= kill. Tracy On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leonard wrote: So what caused the evergency landing? Dave Leonard=20 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Tracy Crook wrot= e: Called John to see if I could help. What a saga! Lots of indications th= at it is clogged fuel system somewhere but also some symptoms that occurred= simultaneously that make no sense at all (like a double rpm indication). = John says compression is good/normal in spite of two fuel stops with no oi= l added to gas (forgot). Engine was running normal at shutdown after emerg= ency landing but now won't start. Unfortunately John has none of the EC2 u= pgrades including ignition & injector diagnostics and has not tried checkin= g for spark while cranking since that is a 2 man job. I forgot to ask if = he had tried the backup on EC2 controller but I assume he did.=20=20 Tracy=20 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Bulent Aliev = wrote: Guys, I just got a call from John Slade. He had to do an emergency landing = in Graystone 17FL (Ocala) FL. His engine will not start again, and he needs= someone with rotary experience to talk to. His cel # is 860-271-3941. Plea= se give him a call if you can help in any way. Buly Bulent Aliev --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8653_1252089205_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8653_1252089205_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8653_1252089205_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
 
   I stand educated !!...........So much for theories.......= ........Thanks
 
Are we going to hear about an RV8/20B getting into the air this weeken= d ??.................
 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from Tracy Crook <tracy@r= otaryaviation.com>: --------------


       Had not considered 2 stroke build= up in sump from that angle Tracy...........Are rotor side seals
there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain co= mpression , or a combination
of both.....I theorized that warn seals a= nd "O" rings................  SNIP
Kelly

Kelly,  Since = you mentioned the O-rings, I am assuming you meant the oil control rings, n= ot the side seals in my last reply.  Side seals of course have no O-ri= ngs.  Side seals hydroplane over the oil in both directions.  Oil= seals do it in only 1 direction.

Tracy (terminology is such a bitch= )



On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
Tracy, Yvon Group,
 s     Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in= sump from that angle Tracy...........Are rotor side seals
there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain co= mpression , or a combination
of both..............I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings would a= llow excess 2 stroke oil past them
by essentially riding over the oil film  (hydroplaning) at high r= pm............. 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/E= C2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 
-------------- Original message from Tracy Crook <= tracy@rotaryavi= ation.com>: --------------

I could be wrong, but the newer a= nd better the rotor oil control rings are, the more oil is recovered from t= he sidewalls when using 2 stroke in the fuel.  A worn engine would pro= bably leave more oil in the chamber to be burned thus eliminating the oil b= uildup in the pan.

Tracy

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Yvon Cournoyer <g= eryvon@videotron.ca> wrote:
New (overhauled) engine purchased from = a Mazda dealer. Air time 95 hrs. Ground time about half as much. I fly a 2.= 105:1 cogbelt PSRU. My aircraft is a Zenair Zenith. Yvon
----- Original Message -----
Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:16 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade

Yvon,
  Was your 13B freshly overhauled when you began flying and how m= any hours in
the air currently..............Condition of the rotor side seals and t= heir "O" rings plus
side plate wear steps are the main controlling factors + the percentag= e of 2 stroke
oil............As the engine rotor side seals, "O" rings and side plat= es wear then more
of the 2 stroke oil will get past them and into the oil sump..........= .
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/E= C2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 
-------------- Original message from Yvon Cournoyer &= lt;geryvon@videotro= n.ca>: --------------

I have been using a ratio of 1:140 for = some time and still getting an increase in the oil pan. I do not run above = 5500-5600 engine rpm. My engine is a 1986 13B. Yvon.
----- Original Message -----
Tracy Crook
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade

Just talked to John again.  Engine emergency caused by = clogged fuel filters (John mentioned debris caused by some fuel tank work o= f some sort?).   Saw fuel pressure fluctuations on EM2 and increased E= GTs then rpm started falling.   After landing, John found the clogged = filters & cleaned them out.  That procedure called for closing a s= hutoff valve from the tanks.  After cleaning the filters, he forgot to= turn the shutoff valves back on, hence the failure to start.  He even= tually noticed that fuel pressure was super low and that eventually jogged = the memory of the shutoff valves.    After opening them, the engi= ne started immediately. 

The RPM anomaly is still a mystery &a= mp; I didn't think to ask him if that was back to normal.  I'm sure we= will hear more later.  I'm kind of amazed that the engine still had g= ood compression after 50 gallons of fuel with no oil added was used.
Just random thoughts:   I'm thinking I should cut back on the amount= of oil I add.  I'm still accumulating 2 stroke in the crankcase when = using 3/4 oz per gallon of gas.  Think I'll go to 1/2 oz / gal. on Ren= esis.  Peripheral exhaust port 13Bs need more oil than Renesis but 1 o= z/gal is probably overkill.

Tracy


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leonard <wdle= onard@gmail.com> wrote:
So what caused the eve= rgency landing?

Dave Leonard=20


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Tracy Crook <t= racy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Called John to see if = I could help.  What a saga!    Lots of indications that it i= s clogged fuel system somewhere but also some symptoms that occurred simult= aneously that make no sense at all (like a double rpm indication). &nb= sp; John says compression is good/normal in spite of two fuel stops with no= oil added to gas (forgot).  Engine was running normal at shutdown aft= er emergency landing but now won't start.  Unfortunately John has none= of the EC2 upgrades including ignition & injector diagnostics and has = not tried checking for spark while cranking since that is a 2 man job. = ;  I forgot to ask if he had tried the backup on EC2 controller but I = assume he did. 

Tracy=20


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Bulent Aliev <bulent@enginegearonline.com> wrote:
Guys, I just got a cal= l from John Slade. He had to do an emergency landing in Graystone 17FL (Ocala) FL. His engine will not start again, and he needs someone= with rotary experience to talk to. His cel # is 860-271-3941. Please give = him a call if you can help in any way.
Buly
Bulent Aliev





= --
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net<= /A>



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