X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with ESMTP id 3786756 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:23:09 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090731002233.MDVB20430.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:22:33 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.133.78]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id NQNY1c00T1hf1Cg04QNZeR; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:22:33 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=hDfvU7RYD8UA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=2y-4s5_9m_GddKxxTKsA:9 a=Tc0RUC_XoGm8iTrdJVQA:7 a=Z3slpAaqXUQj03LIZ3xKGsLYcgsA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=Hj2JL13Zt6JHWRnCvIkA:9 a=1H2ci2r-N4s598UIJCoA:7 a=bBwNKhGtV5LLqfdkadyqRrBpNV0A:4 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:24:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CA113A.88BE51F0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcoRUAMRfjfQq9bYRyWZXsmHsei7SwALE2Ag Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CA113A.88BE51F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve; =20 What's the chance you could add some samples of EZpoxy layups? I'd be = happy to send some. =20 And I agree with Jarrett; plan on 6 months to a year. You probably = don't need to check them more than every couple of weeks, or a month. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Thomas Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline =20 I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on = my fiberglass tanks. My airplane is made from vinyl-ester resin, not the = epoxy resins used by many other aircraft. Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune = to the effects that ethanol has on other products. Someone on the Glasair = list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests. What follows is the analysis I posted on the Glasair list. It has = implications for all of us rotary guys as well. When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I = started a test of very high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my = medium. It is 40% alcohol. =20 =20 ----- =20 I thought that I would update everyone on the Ethanol=20 "research" that I have been doing. I now have three test=20 jars set up. One jar has the infamous Jose Cuervo in it.=20 The second jar has pure 91 octane gasoline with 5.7%=20 ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane gasohol (same as=20 above) but laced with water.=20 The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in it; one is a sample=20 of precure that is something I made up several years ago,=20 and the other one is from the original kit. Both samples=20 have been in the jar for a week. So far, there is no=20 noticeable effect on either sample.=20 The gasoline-only jar has three samples in it. One sample=20 is from the original factory lay-up. One is a brand new=20 layup that I did a little over a week ago that was allowed=20 to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is from the same=20 layup just completed, but was cured in an oven at 200=20 degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable effect on any of=20 the three samples after one week. This test will go on for=20 a while longer just out of my own curiosity.=20 The third jar has the water in it. it also has just one=20 sample in it, one of the original factory layups. The water=20 at the bottom of the jar has turned a light brown color. It=20 has clearly leached the alcohol and some other products=20 out of the gas as the water level has grown. There is no=20 effect on the sample layup, either in the gas or the water=20 (I have it standing up in the jar so that part of the sample=20 is in the water and part in the gas.) But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I=20 had with a BP/Arco technical products engineer. He told=20 me that first, California currently has a ethanol ratio of=20 5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He also said that=20 the fiberglass tank problem is nearly irrelevant because,=20 as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, the ethanol will=20 come out of solution and unless your engine is capable of=20 burning pure ethanol, you should avoid using any=20 ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If you were to ever=20 find yourself at very cold temperatures (he didn't specify=20 how cold), the likelihood of ethanol coming out of=20 solution is very high.=20 Now, it also possible (but not probable) that one could=20 obtain an exemption from the Air Resources Board to get=20 ethanol-free gas for experimental purposes, the=20 likelihood of finding someone to sell that small volume is=20 nil.=20 The engineer also told me that it is possible to leach the=20 ethanol out of the fuel. I do not recommend this=20 procedure (legal disclaimer). one can leach the ethanol by=20 adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating it, then cooling it=20 down as far as practicable to ensure that all of the water=20 falls out. Then, remove the water layer. If you don't cool=20 it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the gasoline that=20 will fall out over time. Any takers? So, at least for now, it seems that the effect of ethanol on=20 fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my inability to see=20 any effect on the samples I have in process. Best Regards, =20 Steve Thomas _______________________________________________________ =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CA113A.88BE51F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve;

 

What’s the chance you could = add some samples of EZpoxy layups?  I’d be happy to send = some.

 

And I agree with Jarrett; plan on = 6 months to a year.  You probably don’t need to check them more = than every couple of weeks, or a month.

 

Al G

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Thomas
Sent: Thursday, July 30, = 2009 11:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Using Ethanol-laced Gasoline

 

I am in the process of testing the effect of ethanol-laced gasoline on my fiberglass tanks.  My airplane is made = from vinyl-ester resin, not the epoxy resins used by many other aircraft.  Vinyl-ester is touted to be immune to the effects that ethanol has = on other products.  Someone on the Glasair list had some problems with ethanol, so I decided to run some tests.  What follows is the = analysis I posted on the Glasair list.  It has implications for all of us = rotary guys as well.  When I speak of Jose Cuervo, I started a test of very = high concentrations of ethanol using Jose Cuervo as my medium.  It is = 40% alcohol.  

 

-----

 

I thought that I would update everyone on the = Ethanol 
"research" that I have been = doing. I now have three test 
jars set up. One jar has the infamous = Jose Cuervo in it. 
The second jar has pure 91 octane = gasoline with 5.7% 
ehtanol and the third jar has 91 octane = gasohol (same as 
above) but laced with = water. 

The Jose Cuervo jar has two samples in = it; one is a sample 
of precure that is something I made up = several years ago, 
and the other one is from the original = kit. Both samples 
have been in the jar for a week. So far, = there is no 
noticeable effect on either = sample. 

The gasoline-only jar has three samples = in it. One sample 
is from the original factory lay-up. One = is a brand new 
layup that I did a little over a week ago = that was allowed 
to cure for 48 hours. The third sample is = from the same 
layup just completed, but was cured in an = oven at 200 
degrees for 3 hours. Again, no noticeable = effect on any of 
the three samples after one week. This = test will go on for 
a while longer just out of my own = curiosity. 

The third jar has the water in it. it = also has just one 
sample in it, one of the original factory = layups. The water 
at the bottom of the jar has turned a = light brown color. It 
has clearly leached the alcohol and some = other products 
out of the gas as the water level has = grown. There is no 
effect on the sample layup, either in the = gas or the water 
(I have it standing up in the jar so that = part of the sample 
is in the water and part in the = gas.)

But the final coup de grace comes from a conversation I 
had with a BP/Arco technical products = engineer. He told 
me that first, California currently has a = ethanol ratio of 
5.7% but will soon be changing to 10%. He = also said that 
the fiberglass tank problem is nearly = irrelevant because, 
as ethanol laced gasoline gets colder, = the ethanol will 
come out of solution and unless your = engine is capable of 
burning pure ethanol, you should avoid = using any 
ethanol-laced gasoline at altitude. If = you were to ever 
find yourself at very cold temperatures = (he didn't specify 
how cold), the likelihood of ethanol = coming out of 
solution is very high. 

Now, it also possible (but not probable) = that one could 
obtain an exemption from the Air = Resources Board to get 
ethanol-free gas for experimental = purposes, the 
likelihood of finding someone to sell = that small volume is 
nil. 

The engineer also told me that it is = possible to leach the 
ethanol out of the fuel. I do not = recommend this 
procedure (legal disclaimer). one can = leach the ethanol by 
adding water to a tank of fuel, agitating = it, then cooling it 
down as far as practicable to ensure that = all of the water 
falls out. Then, remove the water layer. = If you don't cool 
it down, micro-bubbles will remain in the = gasoline that 
will fall out over time. Any = takers?

So, at least for now, it seems that the = effect of ethanol on 
fiberglass is somewhat moot, despite my = inability to see 
any effect on the samples I have in = process.


Best Regards,

 =

Steve Thomas





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