X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3746863 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:02:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090706200157676.ODBY24657@cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com> for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:01:57 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Avoid reading ..... Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:04:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C9FE53.765EBA30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acn+dP0kOk08hZypTUaesP2OF1aqUA== Message-Id: <20090706200157676.ODBY24657@cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C9FE53.765EBA30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologize for the multiple postings. I first got an indication the e = mail bounced, so since another one. That one deleted the color coding so you could tell who was saying what in the discussion. So here is the third = one with color coding (Hopefully). I wouldn=92t want to take credit for = Bob=92s points and I=92m certain vice versa {:>) Ed To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Below staging Hi Steve, No offense, but I'm quite sure the EC2 doesn't know if the injectors are powered or not. The disable switches operate on the power leads to the injectors and the EC2 pulls the other side of the injector to ground to fire it. There's no input to tell the EC2 whether power is applied or not. What it does know is that the cold start switch is activated. In Tracy's wiring scheme, that happens automatically when a disable switch is activated. You have to do it manually but it amount to the same effect. Your description is exactly the way it is supposed to work. Hi Bob, (I=92m baaaccccckkkkk). No offense, Bob {:>), whether the EC2 does or does not sense injector = line voltage, I do not know. But, I don't see why the EC2 could not easily = tell if there is power to the injectors. Any time the EC2 is not grounding its' side of the injector (causing it = to inject) there is 12+ Volts at the EC2 injector pin on the EC2 box - = Unless you have turned the disable switch for that pair of injectors off (no voltage to injectors). Until the EC2 grounding pulse there is no current flow and therefore no voltage drop across the injector. So if there is = 12+ volts on one side then there is 12+ volts on both sides including at the = EC2 injector pin. Once the ground pulse is sent then the voltage is dropped across the injectors and there is indeed near zero volts on the EC2 pin. = =20 So I would think it would be easy for the EC2 to sense whether there is = 12 volts on that pin between injector pulses and if there is 12+ volts, = then the EC2 would know it is powered up. Now whether the EC2 does this or not, again, I do not know, but it would seem very easy to do. I know I do that on my EFISM =96 in fact sensing = the voltage level of the pulse train is how I measure the pulse duration and = use for my calculations. You might also note that with the engine warmed up and idling with the cold start switch off, you can turn off the secondary injectors and the engine will run fine whether the cold start switch is on or off. The fact that it runs fine with the secondaries off and the cold switch on emphasizes that the cold start function doesn't double the pulse width below the staging point. That would deliver too much gas to the engine. Bob, I believe the normal default mode for the EC2 is above the staging point with all four injectors firing. So the nominal pulse duration is = that required to keep these four injectors providing the required fuel and = that is the "normal" state. Every thing else are =93special states=94. Now we come to some special EC2 operating states. The two primary = operating states, it would appear to me are:=20 1. Operating above staging manifold pressure 2. Operating below staging manifold pressure Above Staging Point. State: Above staging with 4 injectors power on and nominal pulse = duration, cold start function inactive. Engine runs fine. If you now turned off one pair of injectors, you are removing its power = and therefore disabling that pair and also grounding the cold start circuit which activates the cold start function. The EC2 then doubles the normal pulse duration to compensate for the OFF disable switch cutting off half = of the injectors. So fuel flow is still basically what we had before = disabling one pair. Engine runs fine. Now you turn the disabled pair back on, this applies power to the = injectors and ungrounds the cold start circuit, therefore the pulse duration is = cut in half and drops back to the nominal duration for 4 injectors. Engine = runs fine. Now you leave both injector pair on and reach up and manually turn on = the cold start switch on the PCM control panel again activating the cold = start function. Power in this state is available to both pair (all 4) = injectors, and the cold start function doubles the nominal pulse duration. So with = all four injectors with power on, this doubling of the pulse duration ends = up feeding double the fuel amount to the engine that would normally be = provided by 4 injectors. Engine may NOT run so fine.=20 Ok, still above staging point, all injectors are on and firing but too = much fuel. Cold start switch on PCM panel back to off/inactive. Pulse = duration is cut by =BD back to the nominal pulse duration for 4 injectors. Engine = Runs Fine. Below Staging Point (this appears to be the state of contention) The engine drops below the staging point. Two things happens (I = believe). 1. The EC2 no longer fires the secondary pair (but power is still on = them), 2. The EC2 doubles the pulse duration (over that nominal for the 4 injectors) which then compensates for having 1/2 of the injectors no = longer firing.=20 So the fuel flow is the same (ideally) immediately above and below the staging point due to the action of doubling the pulse duration and = halving the number of injectors - when you drop below staging point. So far, no cold start function is involved (I think {:>)) Engine Runs fine. Ok, we are now below staging point cooking along on two primary = injectors (I know you disagree with this point, Bob, but bear with me) When you drop below that staging point the EC2 automatically doubles the nominal pulse duration because you have stopped using the 2 secondary injectors. Normally you are using the two primary injectors below staging. So we = still have the same fuel flow below with 2 injectors that we had above staging point with 4 injectors =96 so fuel flow both sides of the staging point = is the same (ideally). Engine runs fine. Now, while below staging, you manually turn off the primary injectors by turning off their disable switch. This removes power from the primary injectors and grounds the cold start circuit. But - wait, I postulate = that below staging the cold start circuit is already in effect (doubling the pulse duration). So there is no further doubling and the EC2 senses = power removed from the primary injectors, senses power is still there on the secondary injectors and immediately starts firing the secondary = injectors. Engine Runs Fine. NOW IF this theory is correct then turning on the cold start switch on = the PCM panel with only one pair of injectors operating below staging - = should do nothing regarding the pulse duration as its already double that that nominally required for 4 injectors. Engine Runs Fine.=20 Now, the above is incorrect and turning on the cold start using the PCM panel switch, does double the already doubled pulse duration (for just = two injectors) then the engine should get too much fuel. OR if turning on = the cold start switch automatically turns on the secondary injectors below staging then again - too much fuel. Engine may not run fine. But IF the 1st hypothesis is a correct hypothesis then it would at = first appear there would be no value in having a cold start switch during = starting because below staging point there is no quadrupling (double of the = already doubled pulse duration) of the pulse duration and no excess fuel flow. However, IMPORTANT POINT - if you recall when you are first attempting = to start your engine you ARE ABOVE the staging point (manifold pressure = wise). In fact, your manifold pressure is nearly the same as WOT (actually = probably closer) while trying to start. So being above the staging point turning = on the cold start will indeed double the fuel flow =96 and since we are = above the staging point both injector pairs can fire - assuming there is power to = both pairs. So until your engine starts to run (and pulls the manifold = pressure down) having the cold start switch on when attempting to start will = double your fuel flow (and possible flood your engine if kept up too long). It will do this because at initial starting the manifold pressure is not = below staging point. You mentioned that the staged indicator was on with the primaries off and the cold switch on. Did you notice if the staged indicator was on with the secondaries off and the cold switch on? I would expect that it was. I think that's an indication that both banks of injectors are active even though below the staging point. Only those injectors that are powered through the disable switches will operate. I agree, it's not absolutely necessary to understand exactly how the various boxes work to use them. I'm an electronics guy though and it's of interest to me. I didn't even think about the below staging issue until Mark Supinski asked a question on the AeroElectric list about a problem he was having using a single three way switch for the injector disable function. Turns out he wasn't activating the cold start either and the engine would always die if he disabled the primaries. That's when it struck me that when cold start is active, both banks of injectors have to be operating from the EC2 side to make injector disable work even when below staging. Ed Anderson isn't quite convinced I have it right either. If I can't convince him, I'll have to change my story. Or, Tracy will come back from vacation and straighten me out. :) Bob W. Hey, Bob, I would rephrase such that it reads that "Ed Anderson is not = quite certain that HE has it right" and that is one reason why we are having = this discussion {:>) But, I agree there is only one infallible source for the information. =20 Ok, that=92s it for me. Now, we=92ll have to wait for the guru to come = down from the mountain (or at least back from Colorado) to find out. Would = not surprise me greatly to find out all our theories are defunct {:>) Great discussion, Bob, Steve, great list. Best Regards Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C9FE53.765EBA30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Avoid reading .....

Apologize for the multiple postings.  I first got an = indication the e mail bounced, so since another one.  That one = deleted the color coding so you could tell who was saying what in the = discussion.  So here is the third one with color coding = (Hopefully).  I = wouldn’t want to take credit = for Bob’s points and = I’m certain vice versa {:>)

Ed

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Below staging

Hi Steve,

No offense, but I'm quite sure the EC2 doesn't know if the = injectors

are powered or not.  The disable switches operate on the power = leads to

the injectors and the EC2 pulls the other side of the injector = to

ground to fire it.  There's no input to tell the EC2 whether = power is

applied or not.  What it does know is that the cold start = switch is

activated.  In Tracy's wiring scheme, that happens = automatically when a

disable switch is activated.  You have to do it manually but = it amount

to the same effect. Your description is exactly the way it is = supposed

to work.

Hi Bob, (I’m = baaaccccckkkkk).

No offense, Bob {:>), whether the EC2 does or = does not sense injector line voltage, I do not know.  But, I don't = see why the EC2 could not easily tell if there is power to the = injectors.

Any time the EC2 is not grounding its' side of the = injector (causing it to inject)  there is 12+ Volts at the EC2 = injector pin on the EC2 box - Unless you have turned the disable switch = for that pair of injectors off (no voltage to injectors). Until the EC2 = grounding pulse there is no current flow and therefore no voltage drop = across the injector.  So if there is 12+ volts on one side then = there is 12+ volts on both sides including at the EC2 injector pin. Once = the ground pulse is sent then the voltage is dropped across the = injectors and there is indeed near zero volts on the EC2 pin.  =

So I would think it would be easy for the EC2 to = sense whether there is 12 volts on that pin between injector pulses and = if there is 12+ volts, then the EC2 would know it is powered = up.

Now whether the EC2 does this or not, again, I do = not know, but it would seem very easy to do.  I know I do that on = my EFISM – in fact sensing the voltage level of the pulse train is = how I measure the pulse duration and use for my = calculations.



You might also note that with the engine warmed up and idling with = the

cold start switch off, you can turn off the secondary injectors and = the

engine will run fine whether the cold start switch is on or = off.  The

fact that it runs fine with the secondaries off and the cold switch = on

emphasizes that the cold start function doesn't double the pulse = width

below the staging point.  That would deliver too much gas to = the engine.

Bob, I believe the normal default mode for the EC2 = is above the staging point with all four injectors firing.  So the = nominal pulse duration is that required to keep these four injectors = providing the required fuel and that is the "normal" state. = Every thing else are “special states”.

Now we come to some special EC2 operating = states.  The two primary operating states, it would appear to me = are:

    1. Operating above staging manifold = pressure
    2. Operating below staging manifold = pressure


Above Staging Point.

State:  Above staging with 4 injectors power = on and nominal pulse duration, cold start function = inactive.  Engine runs fine.

If you now turned off one pair of injectors, you = are removing its power and therefore disabling that pair and also = grounding the cold start circuit which activates the cold start = function. The EC2 then doubles the normal pulse duration to compensate = for the OFF disable switch cutting off half of the injectors.  So = fuel flow is still basically what we had before disabling one = pair.  Engine runs fine.

Now you turn the disabled pair back on, this = applies power to the injectors and ungrounds the cold start circuit, = therefore the pulse duration is cut in half and drops back to the = nominal duration for 4 injectors.  Engine runs = fine.

Now you leave both injector pair on and reach up = and manually = turn on the cold start switch on the PCM control = panel = again activating the cold start function.  Power in this state is = available to both pair (all 4) injectors, and the cold start function = doubles the nominal pulse duration.  So with all four injectors = with power on, this doubling of the pulse duration ends up feeding = double the fuel amount to the engine that would normally be provided by = 4 injectors.  Engine may NOT run so fine.

Ok, still above staging point, all injectors are on = and firing but too much fuel. Cold start switch on PCM panel back to = off/inactive. Pulse duration is cut by =BD back to the nominal pulse = duration for 4 injectors.  Engine Runs = Fine.

Below Staging Point (this appears to be the state = of contention)

The engine drops below the staging point.  Two = things happens (I believe).  1.  The EC2 no longer fires the = secondary pair (but power is still on them), 2.  The EC2 doubles = the pulse duration (over that nominal for the 4 injectors) which then = compensates for having 1/2 of the injectors no longer firing. =

So the fuel flow is the same (ideally) immediately = above and below the staging point due to the action of doubling the = pulse duration and halving the number of injectors - when you drop below = staging point.  So = far, no cold start function is involved (I think = {:>)) Engine Runs fine.

Ok, we are now below staging point cooking along on = two primary injectors (I know you disagree with this point, Bob, but = bear with me) When you drop below that staging point the EC2 = automatically doubles the nominal pulse duration because you have = stopped using the 2 secondary injectors.   Normally you are = using the two primary injectors below staging. So we still have the same = fuel flow below with 2 injectors that we had above staging point with 4 = injectors – so fuel flow both sides of the staging point is the = same (ideally). Engine runs fine.


Now, while below staging, you manually turn off the = primary injectors by turning off their disable switch.  This = removes power from the primary injectors and grounds the cold start = circuit. But - wait, I postulate that below staging the cold start = circuit is already in effect (doubling the pulse duration).  So = there is no further doubling and the EC2 senses power removed from the = primary injectors, senses power is still there on the secondary = injectors and immediately starts firing the secondary = injectors. Engine Runs Fine.

NOW IF this theory is correct then turning on the = cold start switch on the PCM = panel = with only one pair of injectors operating below staging - should do = nothing regarding the pulse duration as its already double that that = nominally required for 4 injectors. Engine Runs = Fine. =

Now, the above is incorrect and turning on the cold = start using the PCM panel switch, does double the already doubled pulse = duration (for just two injectors) then the engine should get too much = fuel. OR if turning on the cold start switch automatically turns on the = secondary injectors below staging then again - too much = fuel.  Engine may not run fine.

But IF the 1st hypothesis  is a correct hypothesis = then it would at first appear there would be no value in having a cold = start switch during starting because below staging point there is no = quadrupling (double of the already doubled pulse duration) of the pulse = duration and no excess fuel flow.

However, IMPORTANT = POINT - = if you recall when you are first attempting to start your engine = you ARE ABOVE = the staging point (manifold pressure wise).  In fact, your manifold = pressure is nearly the same as WOT (actually probably closer) while = trying to start.  So being above the staging point turning on the = cold start will indeed double the fuel flow – and since we are = above the staging point both injector pairs can fire - assuming there is = power to both pairs.  So until your engine starts to run (and pulls = the manifold pressure down) having the cold start switch on when = attempting to start will double your fuel flow (and possible flood your = engine if kept up too long).  It will do this because at initial = starting the manifold pressure is not below staging = point.



You mentioned that the staged indicator was on with the primaries = off

and the cold switch on.  Did you notice if the staged = indicator was on

with the secondaries off and the cold switch on?  I would = expect that

it was.  I think that's an indication that both banks of = injectors are

active even though below the staging point.  Only those = injectors that

are powered through the disable switches will = operate.

I agree, it's not absolutely necessary to understand exactly how = the

various boxes work to use them.  I'm an electronics guy though = and it's

of interest to me.  I didn't even think about the below = staging issue

until Mark Supinski asked a question on the AeroElectric list about = a

problem he was having using a single three way switch for the = injector

disable function.  Turns out he wasn't activating the cold = start either

and the engine would always die if he disabled the primaries.  = That's

when it struck me that when cold start is active, both banks = of

injectors have to be operating from the EC2 side to make = injector

disable work even when below staging.

Ed Anderson isn't quite convinced I have it right either.  If = I can't

convince him, I'll have to change my story.  Or, Tracy will = come

back from vacation and straighten me out.  = :)

Bob W.


Hey, Bob, I would rephrase such that it reads that = "Ed Anderson is not quite certain that HE has it right" and = that is one reason why we are having this discussion {:>) But, I = agree there is only one infallible source for the information.  =

Ok, that’s it for me.  Now, we’ll = have to wait for the guru to come down from the mountain (or at least = back from Colorado) to find out.  Would not surprise me greatly to = find out all our theories are defunct {:>)

Great discussion, Bob, Steve, great = list.

Best Regards

Ed





Ed = Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW<= /FONT>

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm=

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