X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost05.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3688763 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:28:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.55; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from laptop (adsl-146-126-115.mco.bellsouth.net[72.146.126.115]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with SMTP id <20090619202723H05001d3nke>; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:27:23 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [72.146.126.115] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Perhaps it is 56 psi was [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:27:26 -0400 Message-ID: <1CC10482919B4DBC9416791391D14B63@LAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C9F0FA.D5C6B6F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnxC7rw4N1b30LATRyNPQTWCog98gADh+Iw This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C9F0FA.D5C6B6F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed, I think that the jumper wire is used to short the injector to full open. That is how injectors are sized, by the amount that they will flow at 100%. You notice that the jumper is moved to a different location when checking for a leak. That is to assure the injector is off. So you are checking for a leak at closed and amount and spray pattern at full open. So the problem with using the EC-2 to modify the injector is that the injector can not flow more than will go thru at full open. The EC-2 would be able to lower the output, but it would not be able to get more than 100% out of it. I think that the injectors are sized a little small for the car knowing that you will only be WOT for a short time. Our application is looking for max output continuously. So what would be the output of an injector if it should flow 295 cc at a pressure of 57 lbs if it were to be operated at either 44 or 36 lbs instead? This would be a real drop in HP that could be supported. I looked at the fuel pump capacity for the fuel pumps that Tracy sells. They can output around 30 gph at 60 psi, so they should be fine if the pressure is raised. They will pull about 9 amps under that condition. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 2:28 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Perhaps it is 56 psi was [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Bill, you may be on to something. I initially thought you might have misinterpreted the tests results and I thought that 29 psi "hold" pressure might be the operating pressure. Fuel hold pressure 200 kPa {2.0 kgf/cm2, 29 psi} http://www.myrotarycar.com/portal/forum/uploads/RX8TX/Manuals/CD05-xx-03le/i ndex.html However, having said that - I then found under "Fuel Injector Inspection" tab the following: Test condition . Fuel pressure: 392 kPa {4.00 kgf/cm2, 56.9 psi} . Atmosphere temperature: Normal temperature Leakage amount Engine Fuel injector Leakage amount (approx.) (1 drop) Position Color 13B-MSP (Standard Power) FP1, RP1 Red 110 min. or more FS, RS Blue 30 min. or more 13B-MSP (High Power) FP1, RP1 Red 110 min. or more FP2, RP2, FS, RS Yellow 70 min. or more So at least for testing for leaks it appears 56 psi is also used and the next table in that section of the manual - at least implies that the flow rate of the injectors is also based on this 56 psi. I draw this conclusion since the manual does not indicate a requirement to change the pressure from the 56 psi used for the leak test before conducting the flow test (below). They show the red injector's (15sec test) = 69-78 or mid point of 73.5 * 4 = 294 cc/min - which as I understand is the quoted value for the Red (primary) injector for the standard power 4 port Renesis. . If not within the specification, replace the fuel injector. Injection volume Engine Fuel injector Injection volume (approx.) (cm3{cc, fl oz}/15s) Position Color 13B-MSP (Standard Power) FP1, RP1 Red 69-78 {69-78, 2.4-2.6} FS, RS Blue 118-133 {118-133, 4.00-4.50} 13B-MSP (High Power) FP1, RP1 Red 69-78 {69-78, 2.4-2.6} FP2, RP2, FS, RS Yellow 89-101 {89-101, 3.01-3.42} So I believe the 5 minute hold test (29psi) is a test of the regulator (and likely the entire fuel system including a check for leaking injectors?) to hold the decay to at least 29 psi after 5 minutes. But, it appears that the desired operating pressure might be closer to 56 psi based on the fuel flow test (presumably conducted at 56 psi sinces it comes right after the leak test at 56 PSI and no indication that the pressure was changed for the flow test). Looking at the fuel diagram and seeing no indication of a manifold reference tube going back to the fuel tank where the regulator is, I would bet a beer that the fuel pressure is controlled by the CPU either through fuel pump speed control or perhaps electronic control of the regulator in the tank. My bet is on fuel pump speed. The only reason I hesitate at all is that in the Fuel Line Pressure Inspection check, there is a jumper wire used to ground a Fuel Pump related terminal. This might be just to provide signal to the pump to run OR it might possible by-pass the fuel pressure regulation function and drive line pressure up just for the test. Could be either one. 8. Ground the check connector terminal F/P using the jumper wire. But, until I see/find or have someone point out something that shows different operating pressure, I'm inclined to agree with Bill's conclusion. Most tests including the flow test appears to be conducted with 56.9 psi as the value. Good find, Bill, certain to stimulate discussion on the topic - and somebody may know for certain {:>). Assessing how much impact this would have requires a bit of math Generally, if you have a fuel pressure change then the new flow rate = old flowrate * sqrt(New Fuel Pressure/Old Fuel Pressure). So if you were using 43 psi and 295 cc/min injectors and then went to 56 psi, you would have New Flow rate = 295 * sqrt(56/43) = 295 * 1.1411 = 336 cc/min. or about a 14% difference. However, I'm not certain that would be signficant using the Ec2/EC3 as you have the ability to tune the flow of your injectors in a number of ways. You can use the mode 6 in normal staging/operation mode, you can use the mixture control, and using the EM2/3 change the fuel map bar heights. So if the 56psi is the required pressure to achieve the rate flow (normally 43 psi is used) then the injectors are passing less fuel than rated - but, whether this would have any material effect on good operation of the EC2/EC2 I personally rather doubt. But, only Tracy can authoritatively respond to that. Ed Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 1:13 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power By the way, I just discovered that the fuel pressure spec for the RX-8 is over 56 lbs! See the link. http://www.myrotarycar.com/portal/forum/uploads/RX8TX/Manuals/CD05-xx-03le/i ndex.html Most of us have our pressure way lower than that and that will greatly lower the output of the stock injectors since they are sized to deliver fuel at that pressure. Could be why some of us are not getting throttle response above 2/3 throttle? What about you guys with superchargers? Do you go lean? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:58 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Oh, If you happen to be using the 6 port and plan to use only 4 of the yellow injectors, they are only good for between 173 and 197 HP at 80% duty cycle and BSFC of .5. You would have to use all 6 to realize that higher HP that they are supposed to make. I am thinking that they are sized small in the car because they don't expect you to be at WOT for long in the car and they will have a chance to cool down. In our case they will be at WOT for hours and could overheat if they were at a high duty cycle. Thoughts?? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:38 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Bryan, Well, ain't that interesting! That indicates that the injectors (according to calculators I found on the web) will support between 183 and 206 HP with a duty cycle of 80% and an BSFC of .5. So much for all these wild guesses we have been making about how much power we will get with the Renesis. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Bill, According to the manual, the flow rates are: Red 69-78 ccm/15s Blue 118-133 Yellow 89-101 I'm assuming the 15s means 15 seconds. So, multiply these values by 4. Bryan _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power What is the actual size of the stock Renesis injectors? I was under the understanding that the red primary was 295 ccm and the blue secondary was 610 ccm. I heard that the yellow injectors from the hi power 6 port were a different size, but have never heard what size they were supposed to be. Don, did you say you had your injectors cleaned and flowed? What did they flow? Where can this information be found? Is is listed in a Mazda book somewhere? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Mode 6 would handle it but that is for normal staging only. The 'injector set disabled' is a special case In which the EC2/3 does not know which set has been disabled and therefore can't know exactly what to do. It's up to the pilot to make the appropriate response on the mixture knob if the injectors are not the same size. Tracy On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen wrote: When you switch the primary injectors off and secondary injectors on - the EC2 is still providing the same pulse duration (assuming engine manifold pressure, etc are the same) for the almost twice as large secondary injectors as it did for the smaller primary injectors. Ergo, you are feeding the engine almost twice the fuel (for the same engine conditions) as you did when on the primary injectors. The engine is choking on too much fuel. Unless, of course, you have made the mode 6 adjustment to compensate for the difference in the flow rates - or will mode 6 not handle such a big differential. Al G __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C9F0FA.D5C6B6F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed,

I think that the jumper wire is = used to short the injector to full open.  That is how injectors are sized, = by the amount that they will flow at 100%.  You notice that the jumper is = moved to a different location when checking for a leak.  That is to = assure the injector is off.   So you are checking for a leak at closed = and amount and spray pattern at full open.

So the problem with using the EC-2 = to modify the injector is that the injector can not flow more than will go = thru at full open.  The EC-2 would be able to lower the output, but it = would not be able to get more than 100% out of it.

I think that the injectors are = sized a little small for the car knowing that you will only be WOT for a short time.  Our application is looking for max output = continuously.

So what would be the output of an = injector if it should flow 295 cc at a pressure of 57 lbs if it were to be = operated at either 44 or 36 lbs instead?  This would be a real drop in HP that = could be supported.

I looked at the fuel pump capacity = for the fuel pumps that Tracy sells.  They can output around 30 gph at 60 psi, so they should be = fine if the pressure is raised.  They will pull about 9 amps under that = condition.

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 2:28 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Perhaps it is 56 psi was [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power

 

Bill, you may be on to something.  I initially thought = you might have misinterpreted the tests results and I thought that 29 psi “hold” pressure  might be the operating = pressure.

 =

Fuel hold pressure

200 kPa {2.0 kgf/cm2, 29 psi} =

 

http://www.myrotarycar.com/portal/forum/uploads/RX8= TX/Manuals/CD05-xx-03le/index.html

 

 However, having said that - I = then found under “Fuel Injector Inspection” tab the = following:

 

Test condition

• Fue= l pressure: 392 kPa {4.00 kgf/cm2, 56.9 psi}

• Atm= osphere temperature: Normal temperature =

Leakage amount

Engine

Fuel injector

Leakage amount (approx.) =

(1 drop)

Position

Color

13B-MSP =

(Standard = Power)

FP1, RP1 =

Red =

110 min. or = more

FS, RS =

Blue =

30 min. or = more

13B-MSP =

(High Power) =

FP1, RP1 =

Red =

110 min. or = more

FP2, RP2, =

FS, RS =

Yellow =

70 min. or = more

 

 

So at least for testing for leaks = it appears 56 = psi is also used and the next table in that section of the = manual - at least implies that the flow rate of the injectors is also based on = this 56 psi.  I draw this conclusion since the manual does not indicate a requirement to change the pressure from the 56 psi used for the leak = test  before conducting the flow test (below).  They show the red injector’s   (15sec test) =3D 69-78 or mid point of 73.5 = * 4 =3D  294 cc/min – which as I understand is the quoted value for = the Red (primary) injector for the standard power 4 port Renesis.  =

 

   = ;    • If not within the = specification, replace the fuel injector.

Injection volume

Engine

Fuel injector

Injection volume (approx.) =

(cm3{cc, fl oz}/15s) =

Position

Color

13B-MSP =

(Standard = Power)

FP1, RP1 =

Red =

69-78 {69-78, = 2.4-2.6}

FS, RS =

Blue =

118-133 = {118-133, 4.00-4.50}

13B-MSP =

(High Power) =

FP1, RP1 =

Red =

69-78 {69-78, = 2.4-2.6}

FP2, RP2, =

FS, RS =

Yellow =

89-101 = {89-101, 3.01-3.42}

 

So I believe the 5 minute hold test = (29psi)  is a test of the regulator (and likely the entire fuel system = including a check for leaking injectors?) to hold the decay to at least 29 psi after = 5 minutes.  But, it appears that the desired operating pressure might = be closer to 56 psi based on the fuel flow test (presumably conducted at 56 = psi sinces it comes right after the leak test at 56 PSI and no indication = that the pressure was changed for the flow test).

Looking at the fuel diagram and seeing no indication of a manifold reference tube going back to the fuel tank = where the regulator is, I would bet a beer that the fuel pressure is controlled by = the CPU either through fuel pump speed control or perhaps electronic control = of the regulator in the tank.  My bet is on fuel pump = speed.

The only reason I hesitate  at all is = that in the Fuel Line Pressure Inspection check, there is a jumper wire used = to ground a Fuel Pump related terminal.  This might be just to provide = signal to the pump to run OR it = might possible by-pass the fuel pressure regulation function and drive line = pressure up just for the test.  Could be either one.  =

8. Ground the check connector terminal F/P using the jumper wire.

But,  until I see/find or have = someone point out something that shows different operating pressure, I’m = inclined to agree with Bill’s conclusion. Most tests including the flow test = appears to be conducted with 56.9 psi as the value.  =

Good find, Bill, certain to stimulate = discussion on the topic – and somebody may know for certain {:>).  =

Assessing how much impact this would have requires a bit of math  Generally, if you have a fuel pressure = change then the new flow rate =3D old flowrate * sqrt(New Fuel Pressure/Old Fuel = Pressure).

So if you were using 43 psi and 295 cc/min injectors and then went to 56 psi, you would = have

New Flow rate =3D 295 * sqrt(56/43) =3D = 295 * 1.1411 =3D 336 cc/min.  or about a 14% difference.  However, = I’m not certain that would be signficant using the Ec2/EC3 as you have the = ability to tune the flow of your injectors in a number of ways.  You can use = the mode 6 in normal staging/operation mode, you can use the mixture control, and = using the EM2/3 change the fuel map bar heights.  =

So if the 56psi is the required pressure = to achieve the rate flow (normally 43 psi is used) then the injectors are = passing less fuel than rated – but, whether this would have any material = effect on good operation of the EC2/EC2 I personally rather doubt.  But, = only Tracy can = authoritatively respond to that.

 

Ed

 

Ed

 

 

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com=

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 1:13 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full = power

 

By the way, I just discovered that the fuel pressure spec for = the RX-8 is over 56 lbs! See the link.

 

 http://www.myrotarycar.com/portal/forum/uploads/RX8= TX/Manuals/CD05-xx-03le/index.html

 

Most of us have our pressure way lower than that and that will = greatly lower the output of the stock injectors since they are sized to deliver = fuel at that pressure.  Could be why some of us are not getting throttle = response above 2/3 throttle?  What about you guys with superchargers?  = Do you go lean?

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 10:58 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full = power

Oh,

If you happen to be using the 6 port and plan to use only 4 of = the yellow injectors, they are only good for between 173 and 197 HP at 80% = duty cycle and BSFC of .5.  You would have to use all 6 to realize that = higher HP that they are supposed to make.

I am thinking that they are sized small in the car because they don’t expect you to be at WOT for long in the car and they will = have a chance to cool down.  In our case they will be at WOT for hours and = could overheat if they were at a high duty cycle.

Thoughts??

 

Bill B 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 10:38 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full = power

Bryan,

Well, ain’t that interesting!

That indicates that the injectors (according to calculators I = found on the web) will support between 183 and 206 HP with a duty cycle of 80% = and an BSFC of .5.

So much for all these wild guesses we have been making about how = much power we will get with the Renesis.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 10:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full = power

Bill,

According to the manual, the flow = rates are:

Red 69-78 = ccm/15s

Blue =  118-133

Yellow =  89-101

 

I’m assuming the 15s means 15 seconds.  So, multiply these values by = 4.

Bryan

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 9:44 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full = power

 

What is the actual size of the stock Renesis injectors?  I = was under the understanding that the red primary was 295 ccm and the blue = secondary was 610 ccm.  I heard that the yellow injectors from the hi power 6 = port were a different size, but have never heard what size they were supposed = to be.

Don, did you say you had your injectors cleaned and = flowed?  What did they flow? 

Where can this information be found? Is is listed in a = Mazda book somewhere?

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Friday, June 19, = 2009 9:24 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full = power

Mode 6 would = handle it but that is for normal staging only.  The 'injector set  disabled'  is a special case In which the EC2/3 does not know which = set has been disabled and therefore can't know exactly what to do.  = It's up to the pilot to make the appropriate response on the mixture knob if the = injectors are not the same size.

Tracy

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> = wrote:

When you switch the primary injectors off and = secondary

injectors on - the EC2 is still providing the same pulse duration = (assuming

engine manifold pressure, etc are the same) for the almost twice as = large

secondary injectors as it did for the smaller primary injectors. Ergo, = you

are feeding the engine almost twice the fuel (for the same = engine

conditions) as you did when on the primary injectors.  The engine is = choking

on too much fuel. 

 

Unless, of course, you have made the = mode 6 adjustment to compensate for the difference in the flow rates – or = will mode 6 not handle such a big differential.

 

Al G

 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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