X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.253] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3688532 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:32:06 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.253; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C9F10C.66D76124" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:33:12 -0600 Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F315E482@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Thread-Index: AcnxCfokFwUt57FYRzmnWku+KhFdLwAAaFLg References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9F10C.66D76124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, =20 I believe the 56 psi is for fuel system leak testing. Fuel pressure test standard is 29 psi or better. I will email you a RX8 shop manual. It's over 8 meg.=20 =20 =20 Bobby Hughes =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 11:13 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power By the way, I just discovered that the fuel pressure spec for the RX-8 is over 56 lbs! See the link. =20 =20 http://www.myrotarycar.com/portal/forum/uploads/RX8TX/Manuals/CD05-xx-03 le/index.html =20 Most of us have our pressure way lower than that and that will greatly lower the output of the stock injectors since they are sized to deliver fuel at that pressure. Could be why some of us are not getting throttle response above 2/3 throttle? What about you guys with superchargers? Do you go lean? =20 Bill B =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:58 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Oh, If you happen to be using the 6 port and plan to use only 4 of the yellow injectors, they are only good for between 173 and 197 HP at 80% duty cycle and BSFC of .5. You would have to use all 6 to realize that higher HP that they are supposed to make. I am thinking that they are sized small in the car because they don't expect you to be at WOT for long in the car and they will have a chance to cool down. In our case they will be at WOT for hours and could overheat if they were at a high duty cycle. Thoughts?? =20 Bill B=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:38 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Bryan, Well, ain't that interesting! That indicates that the injectors (according to calculators I found on the web) will support between 183 and 206 HP with a duty cycle of 80% and an BSFC of .5. So much for all these wild guesses we have been making about how much power we will get with the Renesis. =20 Bill B =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Bill, According to the manual, the flow rates are: Red 69-78 ccm/15s Blue 118-133 Yellow 89-101 =20 I'm assuming the 15s means 15 seconds. So, multiply these values by 4. Bryan =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power =20 What is the actual size of the stock Renesis injectors? I was under the understanding that the red primary was 295 ccm and the blue secondary was 610 ccm. I heard that the yellow injectors from the hi power 6 port were a different size, but have never heard what size they were supposed to be. Don, did you say you had your injectors cleaned and flowed? What did they flow? =20 Where can this information be found? Is is listed in a Mazda book somewhere? =20 Bill B =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power Mode 6 would handle it but that is for normal staging only. The 'injector set disabled' is a special case In which the EC2/3 does not know which set has been disabled and therefore can't know exactly what to do. It's up to the pilot to make the appropriate response on the mixture knob if the injectors are not the same size. Tracy=20 On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen wrote: When you switch the primary injectors off and secondary injectors on - the EC2 is still providing the same pulse duration (assuming engine manifold pressure, etc are the same) for the almost twice as large secondary injectors as it did for the smaller primary injectors. Ergo, you are feeding the engine almost twice the fuel (for the same engine conditions) as you did when on the primary injectors. The engine is choking on too much fuel. =20 =20 Unless, of course, you have made the mode 6 adjustment to compensate for the difference in the flow rates - or will mode 6 not handle such a big differential. =20 Al G =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9F10C.66D76124 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
I believe the 56 psi is for fuel system leak = testing. Fuel=20 pressure test standard is 29 psi or better. I will email you a RX8 shop = manual.=20 It's over 8 meg.
 
 
Bobby Hughes
 
 
 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 11:13 AM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc = was=20 [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full=20 power

By the way, I just discovered that the fuel = pressure=20 spec for the RX-8 is over 56 lbs! See the = link.

 

 http://www.myrotarycar.com/portal/forum/uploads/RX8= TX/Manuals/CD05-xx-03le/index.html

 

Most of us have our pressure way lower than = that and=20 that will greatly lower the output of the stock injectors since they are = sized=20 to deliver fuel at that pressure.  Could be why some of us are not = getting=20 throttle response above 2/3 throttle?  What about you guys with=20 superchargers?  Do you go lean?

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:58 = AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs = 495 cc=20 was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full=20 power

Oh,

If you happen to be using the 6 port and plan = to use=20 only 4 of the yellow injectors, they are only good for between 173 and = 197 HP at=20 80% duty cycle and BSFC of .5.  You would have to use all 6 to = realize that=20 higher HP that they are supposed to make.

I am thinking that they are sized small in the = car=20 because they don’t expect you to be at WOT for long in the car and = they will=20 have a chance to cool down.  In our case they will be at WOT for = hours and=20 could overheat if they were at a high duty = cycle.

Thoughts??

 

Bill = B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:38 = AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs = 495 cc=20 was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full=20 power

Bryan,

Well, ain’t that=20 interesting!

That indicates that the injectors (according = to=20 calculators I found on the web) will support between 183 and 206 HP with = a duty=20 cycle of 80% and an BSFC of .5.

So much for all these wild guesses we have = been making=20 about how much power we will get with the = Renesis.

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:03 = AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs = 495 cc=20 was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full=20 power

Bill,

According to = the=20 manual, the flow rates are:

Red 69-78=20 ccm/15s

Blue=20  118-133

Yellow=20  89-101

 

I’m = assuming the 15s=20 means 15 seconds.  So, multiply these values by=20 4.

Bryan

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:44=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs = 495 cc=20 was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full=20 power

 

What is the actual size of the stock Renesis=20 injectors?  I was under the understanding that the red primary was = 295 ccm=20 and the blue secondary was 610 ccm.  I heard that the yellow = injectors from=20 the hi power 6 port were a different size, but have never heard what = size they=20 were supposed to be.

Don, did you say you had your injectors = cleaned and=20 flowed?  What did they flow? 

Where can this information be found? Is = is listed=20 in a Mazda book somewhere?

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:24=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs = 495 cc=20 was [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full=20 power

Mode 6 would = handle it but=20 that is for normal staging only.  The 'injector set  = disabled' =20 is a special case In which the EC2/3 does not know which set has been = disabled=20 and therefore can't know exactly what to do.  It's up to the pilot = to make=20 the appropriate response on the mixture knob if the injectors are not = the same=20 size.

Tracy

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen = <ALVentures@cox.net>=20 wrote:

When you switch the = primary=20 injectors off and secondary

injectors on - the EC2 is = still=20 providing the same pulse duration (assuming

engine manifold pressure, = etc are=20 the same) for the almost twice as large

secondary injectors as it = did for=20 the smaller primary injectors. Ergo, you

are feeding the engine = almost twice=20 the fuel (for the same engine

conditions) as you did = when on the=20 primary injectors.  The engine is = choking

on too much fuel. =20

 

Unless, of = course,=20 you have made the mode 6 adjustment to compensate for the difference in = the flow=20 rates – or will mode 6 not handle such a big=20 differential.

 

Al=20 G

 

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