X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.27] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3687785 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:30:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.27; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so783018qwh.25 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:29:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=7+XcpzrqIijAysj5RIYGp+2n+C5iOdfHGHV0dInfeyc=; b=V+1YwkV+rK4W7J5Ff4HCHD4GuiQbV9qha2OJrSsnX4PTMQAefZKfykYEdAaJbFLyRw dPU6nJj952ucpPT9Kq7B5IDSdpY09u3MUX4BVXCNsB8GYqqP3HXj2ZHridKGhUNVGxG6 7ZXiStkG/MgO17atp0SM+CXXfGYTNrkJz3EcI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=lnNbkQYMc6MSURLKTJlJFh6zld5T2+P3kOGv5vNqUMauaMTlhz4CkcTzT+8sS/djmk Oh3RGW1Lyaj1me5x7ugoWOy7iLQvzIErOI8y4DLOGvBFGeRTmConp3ypT9xBl9YkiOmV 4c60vY/nadPq6eLTjGduBI97pgqOdX1uJRL2k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.89.4 with SMTP id c4mr2075042qam.368.1245382165807; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:29:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:29:25 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b2547b2739207190 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0906182029u1ed57f86off124b02696bd891@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] responses to responses, not developing full power From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb2fc9a44ba046cab2116 --0015175cb2fc9a44ba046cab2116 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Don Wallker wrote: > Flying RV-8 Renesis > > > List, > Here is something new I noticed. When running at 2450 RPM the other > day, I switched off the Primary injectors and the engine continued to run, > but it was rough. I assume that this is a safety design feature?! Tracy, > am I correct on this? Was that said tongue in cheek? : ) This is something I've mentioned in the past. This is a result of the primary & secondary injectors being very different in size on the 4 port Renesis. Since the EC2/3 has no way of knowing which injectors you switched off, it doesn't know how to juggle the injection pulse width. The 2nd gen with equal injectors does not have this problem. Use the manual mixture control to compensate for the mixture error when disabling one set or the other. next question: The manifold lines are both run to the front and rear of the plenum using a tee fitting.. There is no difference in engine running or the MP display if I run to just the front or the rear. I have tried restrictions and accumulators to the lines and no difference. I believe that it is electrical (noise?). Could be. That's what we have been speculating from the start. It must really be bad because the MP sensor is internal to the metal shielded EC2 and not susceptible to electrical noise unless your ground scheme is a nightmare of noise (also suspected early on). Tracy > Another anomaly: When running at full power, 5850 on so, on both > injectors, about 5 or 6 on the mixture monitor, the EGTs stabilize at about > 1640 F. If I enrichen the mixture, I feel the power come on, about > 50-70RPM, but the EGT on Rotor1 rapidly climbs to 1740 or so and the EGT on > rotor 2 drops even faster to about 1450 F. Off the top of his head, Tracy > suggests that I am quenching the spark/combustion with too much fuel. > Thoughts and suggestions? > Ed, > concerning manifold pressure (MP) on the EM-2, I have added dampening and > extra volume to the lines, with absolutely no difference. The engine > continues to run smooth too. I conclude that the problem is electrical > (noise?) and after the EC-2 is taking the info and processing it. > The RPM goes to 0, not NOP, that's not NOP when switching off the primary > or secondary injectors. This problem was first noted in flight above > 6000RPM when it would drop out to 0 and then reappear as the RPM dropped > below 6000. I added a 5K ohm resistor in series with the line to the EM-2 > and a 47mfd cap to ground at Tracy's direction. No difference. My > injectors are the stock Renesis,blue and red 295 and 495 I think. Cleaned > and flow tested. I also swapped them around to no avail. Fuel flow on the > EM-2 at full throttle is 11.5 to 12.5 gals. This is calculated on the EM-2 > from the stock RWS original setting. I believe that it is roughly accurate. > Tracy, > I haven't taken the RV much out of the pattern, so haven't opened it up. I > don't want to overrun the Cessnas and Pipers and of course I am not yet > confident in the engine. After I make some progress on the instrumentation > problems and a couple of other things, I'll button it up, do a few touch and > goes and venture out and get the cruise info and see where full throttle > takes me. Airport altitude 5000 ft. These number are from a 65 F day. > Yes, I believe the MP data is bogus. The "both" on the original post means > both injectors on and mixture at about 6 or 7 bars. Rich mean full rich. I > think the mixture monitor is reading correctly as best power seems to be at > 7 to 8 bars. The manifold lines are both run to the front and rear of the > plenum using a tee fitting.. There is no difference in engine running or > the MP display if I run to just the front or the rear. I have tried > restrictions and accumulators to the lines and no difference. I believe > that it is electrical (noise?). The temp sensor is mounted at the front of > the intake to the oil cooler and the back side is insulated from the heat of > the engine and coolers, exhaust, etc. When coping A to B, I do it with > everything off in the plane. The procedure is dirt simple and works well > for resetting to factory in all the other modes. B controller would get me > to an airport, but I would be paying close attention to the mixture monitor > and adjusting the mixture with most power setting, MP changes. I have run > it in flight. It will save my bacon, but I do not believe it is a copy. It > is just too different. Lynn, > I tried running at at less than full throttle, RPM per your suggestion. > The throttle butterfly valve not all the way open.. I played with it some, > changed the mixture, not difference. So I don't think it is a burble or > eddie in the intake plenum. I have the throttle plate rotating on a > vertical axis. > > All for now, > Don Walker > N113BR > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --0015175cb2fc9a44ba046cab2116 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Don Wa= llker <drwalker@g= bis.com> wrote:
Flying RV-8 Renesis


List,
=A0 =A0Here is something new I noticed. =A0When running at 2450 RPM the ot= her day, I switched off the Primary injectors and the engine continued to r= un, but it was rough. =A0I assume that this is a safety design feature?! = =A0Tracy, am I correct on this?

Was that said=A0 tongue in cheek? : ) =A0=A0 This is something I&#= 39;ve mentioned in the past.=A0 This is a result of the primary & secon= dary injectors being very different in size on the 4 port Renesis.=A0 Since= the EC2/3 has no way of knowing which injectors you switched off, it doesn= 't know how to juggle the injection pulse width.=A0 The 2nd gen with eq= ual injectors does not have this problem.=A0 Use the manual mixture control= to compensate for the mixture error when disabling one set or the other.
next question:
The manifold lines are both run to the front and rear= of the plenum using a tee fitting.. =A0There is no difference in engine running or the MP display if I run to just the front or the rear. =A0I have tried restrictions and accumulators to the lines and no difference. =A0I believe that it is electrical (noise?).
=A0
Could be.=A0=A0 That'= s what we have been speculating from the start.=A0 It must really be bad be= cause the MP sensor is internal to the metal shielded EC2 and not susceptib= le to electrical noise unless your ground scheme is a nightmare of noise (a= lso suspected early on).

Tracy





=A0 Another anomaly: =A0When running at full power, 5850 on so, on both in= jectors, about 5 or 6 on the mixture monitor, the EGTs stabilize at about 1= 640 F. =A0If I enrichen the mixture, I feel the power come on, about 50-70R= PM, but the EGT on Rotor1 rapidly climbs to 1740 or so and the EGT on rotor= 2 drops even faster to about 1450 F. =A0Off the top of his head, Tracy sug= gests that I am quenching the spark/combustion with too much fuel. =A0Thoug= hts and suggestions?
=A0 Ed,
concerning manifold pressure (MP) on the EM-2, =A0I have added dampening an= d extra volume to the lines, with absolutely no difference. =A0The engine c= ontinues to run smooth too. =A0I conclude that the problem is electrical (n= oise?) and after the EC-2 is taking the info and processing it.
=A0 The RPM goes to 0, not NOP, that's not NOP when switching off the = primary or secondary injectors. =A0This problem was first noted in flight a= bove 6000RPM when it would drop out to 0 and then reappear as the RPM dropp= ed below 6000. =A0 I added a 5K ohm resistor in series with the line to the= EM-2 and a 47mfd cap to ground at Tracy's direction. =A0No difference.= =A0My injectors are the stock Renesis,blue and red 295 and 495 I think. = =A0Cleaned and flow tested. =A0I also swapped them around to no avail. =A0F= uel flow on the EM-2 at full throttle is 11.5 to 12.5 gals. This is calcula= ted on the EM-2 from the stock RWS original setting. =A0I believe that it i= s roughly accurate.
=A0 Tracy,
I haven't taken the RV much out of the pattern, so haven't opened i= t up. =A0I don't want to overrun the Cessnas and Pipers and of course I= am not yet confident in the engine. =A0After I make some progress on the i= nstrumentation problems and a couple of other things, I'll button it up= , do a few touch and goes and venture out and get the cruise info and see w= here full throttle takes me. =A0Airport altitude 5000 ft. =A0These number a= re from a 65 F day. =A0Yes, I believe the MP data is bogus. =A0The "bo= th" on the original post means both injectors on and mixture at about = 6 or 7 bars. =A0Rich mean full rich. =A0I think the mixture monitor is read= ing correctly as best power seems to be at 7 to 8 bars. The manifold lines = are both run to the front and rear of the plenum using a tee fitting.. =A0T= here is no difference in engine running or the MP display if I run to just = the front or the rear. =A0I have tried restrictions and accumulators to the= lines and no difference. =A0I believe that it is electrical (noise?). =A0 = The temp sensor is mounted at the front of the intake to the oil cooler and= the back side is insulated from the heat of the engine and coolers, exhaus= t, etc. =A0When coping A to B, I do it with everything off in the plane. = =A0The procedure is dirt simple and works well for resetting to factory in = all the other modes. =A0B controller would get me to an airport, but I woul= d be paying close attention to the mixture monitor and adjusting the mixtur= e with most power setting, MP changes. =A0I have run it in flight. =A0It wi= ll save my bacon, but I do not believe it is a copy. =A0It is just too diff= erent. Lynn,
I tried running at at less than full throttle, RPM per your suggestion. =A0= The throttle butterfly valve not all the way open.. =A0I played with it som= e, changed the mixture, not difference. =A0So I don't think it is a bur= ble or eddie in the intake plenum. =A0I have the throttle plate rotating on= a vertical axis.

All for now,
Don Walker
N113BR



--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html

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