X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f136.google.com ([209.85.221.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3579194 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:12:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.136; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so3462750qyk.7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=PnHD9X605Uyuf2liINbWmJczoyj04Km6VZIE+BCaSfM=; b=l+fQ9Ii/Hbdi9OU+3+JlKwIIzScoph4YtSKaQKiNyTxPokhzVEQ/iqblyL7rxKv82M xPjMJPfj8joldTdeGEhMilB8X3E7djoZRSv8dUqupBoKEbmTxmBzCkkCI7xFRD2L1DDG NE1zXjVcaINX1NVzOyUmX0umnzg3kKddeUYXM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=A1teuqzYbvTDgnCK56eGuvTUwoT1AhJr+6Ew8HuHWDJ4uJUedrIR5OsTSwFjoMRVHx KE/2JCVGEW34oYGZOPiJRSWhFmebt8Mw+0+Cc4f5ajJF+9BRFCnVqGO6uzhoBe5jQsZd 0w5AfgO8mFyNtBEhhIKUeHh12fP5pbcMGN+0o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.37.81 with SMTP id w17mr6211049qad.137.1239639101513; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:11:41 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fe8a5678b5bd2069 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0904130911o4ec2dc8djae2b6c3b0ec266ed@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175ce1824ba14c046771f87e --0015175ce1824ba14c046771f87e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Fun read David, Thanks! Tracy (water rising) On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:37 AM, David Leonard wrote: > > > Dave, >> >> I think you have a higher tolerance for inflight faults than the average >> pilot. :-) >> > > Not exactly sure why you say that, but I could guess. Below is the other > side of the story... why I maybe am a little less phased by maintiance > issues.... > >> >> I disagree with your comment that these are non-incidents. A non-incident >> is when you fly and nothing breaks. I flew an RV-6A with a 160 Lyc for >> several hundred hours over 4 years, incident free. The stuff you noted below >> may not have required a precautionary landing or resulted in a forced >> landing, but they were failures none the less. >> > > Then again, my last 200 hrs of rotary flying have been essentially issue > free (except for one turbo failure - flip switch to fly home from Texas). > It only took about 170 hrs to sort out all those problems. How many hours > do you think it took the piston engine guys to figure out their issues? > > Personally, I now have about 300 hrs in certified aircraft, and 360 hrs in > my RV-6. You have seen the list of issues in my RV, here is the list of > issues with certified aircraft: > C140 throttle cable stuck at full throttle - required turning off the Mags > and landing deadstick on an airport. (mixture cable adjustment insufficient > to stop engine) > C140 dead battery at isolated airport due to bad maintenance from certified > mechanic. > C140 required early engine rebuild costing thousands of dollars. > C140 engine rebuild continued to leak oil all over windscreen right after > rebuild, required repeated trips to repair shop to fix. > C140 lost spinner in flight - could have been catastrophic. > C150 Severe Carb Ice causing sudden engine stoppage - restarted at only > 1000' AGL > C152 Nearly deadstick landing at airport due to fuel starvation due to lack > of reliable fuel consumption/measuring devices. > C152 Severe plug fouling causing cancellation of flight during run up. > C177 Cancellation of long planned trip due to complete electrical failure > on pre-flight. > Piper Dakota - unable to start in cold weather. Cost a whole day. > C182RG Cancellation of another long planned trip due to quirky electrical > issues that made me uneasy. > Piper Apache - Failure of prop governor in left engine requiring a single > engine landing > Piper Apache - Bilateral engine failure due to carb ice - quickly resolved. > (Carb ice happens easily in the tropics - not just in landing phase) > TH-57A - fuel control unit mis metering shortly after start up - flight > moved to different aircraft. > > Those were as the pilot, I also had these failures as a pax (not counted in > the 300 hrs certified time): > P3C-Orion - Engine oil failure causing the dreaded 3-engine landing. > H-46 - chip light warning causing emergency landing in mountainous terrain. > F/A-18 - computer said something was wrong during pre-flight. Flight > canceled. Happened about *5 times*. > F/A-18 Computer said something was wrong in flight - RTB. Happened once. > F/A-18 Cannon jammed and we couldn't shoot the burned out shell of a > tank... damn! > C-5 Flight Canceled - undefined maintenance issue. > C-141 - Spent 6 miserable days in Atsuki trying to board. Every morning > check out of BOQ, carry all belongings (for a 6-month deployment) to > terminal, wait in terminal for several hours for flight to be officially > cancelled due to 'maintiance issues', carry all belongings back to BOQ and > get a different room. Repeat... > C-17 FINALLY going to get off this rock, meet girlfriend, get laid... > Canceled for undisclosed maintenance issues. Still paid for girlfriends > airfare to Bahrain - and she broke up with me after traveling to Bahrain and > back for no reason. > > Surprisingly, all my time in jump planes is without incident. Go figure. > > In both cases (rotary and non-rotary), all the failures are associated > with peripheral systems and not the structural components of the engine. > But if I were to pick the better ENGINE, it would unquestionably and without > a doubt be the rotary. The NTSB records are FILLED with crankshaft > failures, jug failures, exhaust valve failures, cam rod and piston > failures, crashes due to carb ice and crashes due to vapor lock. > > Now that I am through those first couple hundred hours, give me the rotary > any day. I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe that my RV-6 is safer than > any Cessna or piper I could rent from a club or FBO. I now believe that it > is nearly as safe as an RV-6 with a lyc installation. In another 500 hrs, I > think it will be safer and more reliable. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > >> >> Mike Wills >> RV-4 N144MW >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* David Leonard >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 12, 2009 6:32 PM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines >> >> Well, now you are getting into non-incidents. That list is inexhaustible. >> >> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, John Slade wrote: >> >>> Here's a few for the list, Mark, >>> 1. Stock turbo bearings collapsed & took out apex seal. Flew home at >>> reduced power. >> >> >> I have burned out 2 turbos. The first caused precautionary/urgent landing >> at an airport pending shutting off fuel flow to the turbo. The second, I >> flipped a turbo oil shut off switch and flew 1000NM to get home. >> >> >>> >>> 2. Fuel filer (sinstered bronze) looked clean but was restricting fuel >>> flow. Flew home on other tank. >> >> >> Had a fuel pump die in flight, switched to the other and kept flying. >> >>> >>> 3. Bad / intermittent contact on ignition timing sensor made engine run >>> rough. Landed normally and repaired. >> >> >> I had a bad injector enable switch causing rough running during some phase >> one flying (after major change)... landed normally >> >>> >>> 4. Turbo hose blew off on take-off. Returned to land at reduced power. >>> John >>> >> >> >> Been there, done that. >> >> Also: >> Forgot to re-connect fuel return line in engine bay after doing some >> work. dumped a couple gallons of fuel onto the running engine until I >> smelled gas and shut down the engine.. (never left the parking space - but >> it could have been really bad. >> Cracked alternator mount bracket found on pre-flight during phase one >> testing. Would have lost cooling and alternator if it happened now. >> PSRU sun gear pin broke from a backfire during run-up. Was able to taxi >> back but would not have been able to fly. >> >> *This is good* - broke a coolant line in flight and smelled coolant... >> landed at nearby airport and taxied up to restaurant with steam spewing out >> of the cowl. Me and my buddy calmly walked into the restaurant and had >> breakfast. Afterward, we borrowed some tools and fixed the coolant line. >> Went back into the restaurant to ask for 2 pitchers of water to put in our >> plane. Continued ski trip to Mammoth. The end. >> >> -- >> David Leonard >> >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >> >> > > > --0015175ce1824ba14c046771f87e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Fun read David,
=A0 Thanks!

Tracy=A0 (water rising)

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:37 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com= > wrote:


Dave,
=A0
=A0I think you have a higher tolerance= for inflight faults than the average pilot. :-)
=A0
Not exactly sure why you say that, but I could guess.=A0 Below is the = other side of the story... why I maybe am a little less phased by maintianc= e issues....
=A0
=A0I disagree with your comment that t= hese are non-incidents. A non-incident is when you fly and nothing breaks. = I flew an RV-6A with a 160 Lyc for several hundred hours over 4 years, inci= dent free. The stuff you noted below may not have required a precautionary = landing or resulted in a forced landing, but they were failures none the le= ss.
=A0
Then again, my last 200 hrs of rotary flying have been essentially iss= ue free (except for one turbo failure - flip switch to fly home from Texas)= .=A0 It only took about 170 hrs to sort out all those problems.=A0 How many= hours do you think it took the piston engine guys to figure out their issu= es?
=A0
Personally, I now have about 300 hrs in certified aircraft, and 360 hr= s in my RV-6.=A0 You have seen the list of issues in my RV, here is the lis= t of issues with certified aircraft:
C140 throttle cable stuck at full throttle - required turning off the = Mags and landing deadstick on an airport. (mixture cable adjustment=A0insuf= ficient to stop engine)
C140 dead battery at isolated airport due to bad maintenance from cert= ified mechanic.
C140 required early engine rebuild costing thousands of dollars.
C140 engine rebuild continued to leak oil all over windscreen right af= ter rebuild, required repeated trips to repair shop to fix.
C140 lost spinner in flight - could have been catastrophic.
C150 Severe Carb Ice causing sudden=A0engine stoppage - restarted at= =A0only 1000' AGL
C152 Nearly deadstick landing at airport due to fuel starvation due to= lack of reliable fuel consumption/measuring devices.
C152=A0 Severe plug fouling causing cancellation of flight during run = up.
C177 Cancellation of long planned trip due to complete=A0electrical fa= ilure on pre-flight.
Piper Dakota - unable to start in cold weather.=A0 Cost a whole day.
C182RG Cancellation of another=A0long planned trip due to quirky elect= rical issues that made me uneasy.
Piper Apache - Failure of prop governor in left engine requiring a sin= gle engine landing
Piper Apache - Bilateral engine failure due to carb ice - quickly reso= lved. (Carb ice happens easily in the tropics - not just in landing phase)<= /div>
TH-57A - fuel control unit mis metering shortly after start up=A0- fli= ght moved to different aircraft.
=A0
Those were as the pilot, I also had these failures as a pax (not count= ed in the 300 hrs certified time):
P3C-Orion -=A0Engine oil failure causing the dreaded 3-engine landing.=
H-46 - chip light warning causing emergency landing in mountainous ter= rain.
F/A-18 - computer said something was wrong during pre-flight.=A0 Fligh= t canceled.=A0 Happened about 5 times.
F/A-18 Computer said something was wrong in flight - RTB.=A0 Happened = once.
F/A-18 Cannon jammed and we couldn't shoot the burned out shell of= a tank... damn!=A0
C-5 Flight Canceled - undefined maintenance issue.
C-141 - Spent=A06 miserable days in Atsuki trying to board.=A0 Every m= orning check out of BOQ, carry all belongings (for a=A06-month deployment)= =A0to terminal,=A0wait in terminal for several hours for flight to be offic= ially cancelled due to 'maintiance issues', carry all belongings ba= ck to BOQ and get a different room. Repeat...
C-17 FINALLY going to get off this rock, meet girlfriend, get laid... = Canceled for undisclosed maintenance issues.=A0 Still paid for girlfriends = airfare to Bahrain - and she broke up with me after traveling to Bahrain an= d back for no reason.
=A0
Surprisingly, all my time in jump planes is without incident.=A0 Go fi= gure.
=A0
In both cases (rotary and non-rotary), all the failures are associated= with peripheral systems and not the structural components of the engine.= =A0 But if I were to pick the better ENGINE, it would unquestionably and wi= thout a doubt be the rotary.=A0 The NTSB records are FILLED with=A0cranksha= ft failures, jug failures, exhaust valve failures, cam rod and piston failu= res,=A0crashes due to carb ice and=A0crashes due to vapor lock.
=A0
Now that I am through those first couple hundred hours, give me the ro= tary any day.=A0 I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe that my RV-6 is sa= fer than any Cessna or piper I could rent from a club or FBO.=A0 I now beli= eve that it is nearly as safe as an RV-6 with a lyc installation.=A0 In ano= ther 500 hrs, I think it will be safer and more reliable.
=A0
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=
http://RotaryRost= er.net
=A0
=A0
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 6:32 PM=
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey = was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines

Well, now you are getting into non-incidents.=A0 That list is inexhaus= tible.

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, John Slade <jslade@canardaviation.com> wrote:
Here's a few = for the list, Mark,
1. Stock turbo bearings collapsed & took out ape= x seal. Flew home at reduced power.
=A0
I have burned out 2 turbos.=A0 The first caused precautionary/urgent l= anding at an airport pending shutting off fuel flow to the turbo.=A0 The se= cond, I flipped a turbo oil shut off switch and flew 1000NM to get home.
=A0

= 2. Fuel filer (sinstered bronze) looked clean but was restricting fuel flow= . Flew home on other tank.
=A0
Had a fuel pump die in flight, switched to the other and kept flying.<= /div>

= 3. Bad / intermittent contact on ignition timing sensor made engine run rou= gh. Landed normally and repaired.
=A0
I had a bad injector enable switch causing rough running during some p= hase one flying (after major change)...=A0 landed normally

= 4. Turbo hose blew off on take-off. Returned to land at reduced power.
John=20
=A0
=A0
Been there, done that.
=A0
Also:
Forgot to re-connect fuel return line in engine bay after doing some w= ork.=A0 dumped a couple gallons of fuel onto the running engine until I sme= lled gas and shut down the engine.. (never left the parking space - but it = could have been really bad.
Cracked alternator mount bracket found on pre-flight during phase one = testing.=A0 Would have lost cooling and alternator if it happened now.
PSRU sun gear pin broke from a backfire during run-up.=A0 Was able to = taxi back but would not have been able to fly.
=A0
This is good - broke a coolant line in flight and smelled coola= nt...=A0 landed at nearby airport and taxied up to restaurant with steam sp= ewing out of the cowl.=A0 Me and my buddy calmly walked into the restaurant= and had breakfast.=A0 Afterward, we borrowed some tools and fixed the cool= ant line.=A0 Went back into the restaurant to ask for 2 pitchers of water t= o put in our plane.=A0 Continued ski trip to Mammoth.=A0 The end.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.ne= t
http://Rota= ryRoster.net




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