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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:17:11 -0600
Message-ID: <5cf132c0903031117h322cc7ccm70797a1be121cc4f@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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... and in the price of parts (rarely necessary),
... and that I can work on the engine myself (rarely required),
...plus it runs smooth as silk,
...and starts when hot.

Mark S.
       _I_
 ------{0}------

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Patrick Panzera <
panzera@experimental-aviation.com> wrote:

>  Hi Mark,
>
>
>
> I know you are saying that you are not overly concerned with BSFC, but wh=
at
> you=92ve described is exactly that.
>
>
>
> If the IO-540 and the rotary both have similar BSFC, then equal fuel
> consumption will net equal power.
>
>
>
> That is to say, if you are burning 10.5 GPH @ 20=94 MP, you are making ab=
out
> 123 HP figuring .51 lbs per hp/hr. BSFC
>
> If the IO-540 is making only 123 HP and its BSFC is also .51, then it too
> will burn only 10.5 GPH
>
>
>
> If your BSFC is as good as .49 lbs per hp/hr then 10.5 GPH would yield a
> little over 128 HP.
>
> 128 HP with the IO-540 with a BSFC of only .51 would net 10.88 GPH.
>
>
>
> The difference between mogas and 100LL is where the real savings might be=
.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O=
n
> Behalf Of *Mark Steitle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:24 AM
> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here.  Regardinging fuel burn, I'm not
> overly concerned with bsfc, although its not that bad if you're running
> EFI.  What we're really interested in is cost per mile.  I have burned
> nothing but mogas in my 3-rotor Lancair.  The last time I purchased fuel,=
 it
> was $1.65/gallon.  My N/A 3-rotor burns between 10 and 11 gph at around 2=
0"
> MAP.  So, it will cost me somewhere around $16.50 - $18.15/hr to fly.  Ot=
her
> Lancair ES's are running IO-540's, or some derivative of the "540".  From
> what I hear, they burn between 12 - 15 gph.  With the cost of 100LL runni=
ng
> around $4/gallon, that would cost between $48 - $60/hr in fuel.  So,
> figuring cost per mile, I don't see how a Lycoming could come close to
> matching a rotary.  The fuel savings alone will more than cover the cost =
of
> an overhaul.
>
>
>
> And hope the Lycoming doesn't burn a valve, or any number of other common
> ailments which can take a serious bite out of your checkbook.  Most of th=
e
> things that break on a piston engine aren't even present on the rotary.  =
If
> it ain't there, it can't break.
>
>
>
> So, would I use a rotary if I were to do it over, yes, absolutely!
>
>
> Mark S.
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:31 PM, William Wilson <fluffysheap@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I have not found an accomodating A&P but I attribute that to the fact tha=
t
> I have not looked yet.  Given that I live in Seattle I am pretty sure I c=
an
> find one.  Seattle is crawling (fluttering?) with homebuilt planes.  If
> anyone has suggestions, I am listening, but I had not started searching y=
et.
>
> Plan is not to take apart a perfectly good flying plane to change the
> engine, but ideally to get one with a rotary in it already, or replace on=
ly
> at overhaul time.  In each case I save as much on the cheaper engine as I
> would lose on resale value... and if the plane has the rotary in it to st=
art
> with, I get to pay the lower price up front too, which makes price
> difference just plain better.
>
> For efficiency what I said was that homebuilt planes are more efficient
> than factory built, not that rotary are more efficient than Lycoming, tho=
ugh
> in that case it should be quite close.  Bad fuel economy of rotary engine=
 is
> overstated, economy is comparatively bad at low power & RPM but at high
> power it is not bad at all.  As long as you are not turbocharged, you can
> run much leaner than a piston engine, making up for less efficient
> combustion chamber shape.  Rotary BSFC in the lab has gone as low as .375
> (for renesis), and .44-.46 measured in real world racing applications eve=
n
> with traditional type engine.  So I think I would not see a significant
> difference in fuel economy between rotary and piston.  Weight & drag of t=
he
> plane it is in will matter more.
>
> In any case all advice is welcome, even dissenting opinions ;)
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
>
>   William,
>
>
>
>  I highly recommend you check around to make sure you can find an A&P who
> will do a condition inspection with the rotary engine installed BEFORE yo=
u
> commit. Many A&Ps I've talked to dont want anything to do with Experiment=
als
> let alone an engine that looks nothing like what they are used to. There'=
s
> simply too much potential liability (real or perceived) to go out on a li=
mb
> like that. The A&P who used to do the condition inspection on the RV-6A I
> used to own (Lycoming powered) was willing to do it because the RV struct=
ure
> is similar to typical spam cans. He wont have anything to do with wet lay=
up
> homebuilts (EZs, Cozys, etc...). He doesnt even like doing annuals on
> Diamond aircraft with the Rotax 912/914 and they are certified.
>
>
>
>  If you buy a flying homebuilt that is Lyc or Continental powered, before
> you convert it to rotary power seriously think about what you are doing t=
o
> the resale value - if you could ever sell it that is. My guess is that
> you'll give up at least $10,000 in resale value, maybe much more. No big
> deal if you plan on keeping it for life.
>
>
>
>  I dont know where you got the idea that rotaries are more fuel efficient=
.
> Lycosaurs/Continentals typically have BSFCs in the low .40s. The commonly
> accepted number for a rotary is about .50. Some here seem to do better,
> others worse. With a grand total of 2 hours on my rotary I cant say what =
my
> experience will be but hope its close to the Lyc I used to fly.
>
>
>
>  Finally dont underestimate the effort required to make the change. I
> started building my RV-4  in late 1995. The airframe was essentially done=
 in
> 2000. My first flight was last month. Granted I took longer than many and
> much of the trouble came from my desire to eliminate the cowl cheeks on a=
n
> already cramped engine compartment. But thats eight years of tinkering to
> get the engine installed and running to the point where I had enough
> confidence in it to fly it.
>
>
>
>  Not trying to discourage you, but go into this with eyes wide open.
>
>
>
> Mike Wills
>
> RV-4 N144MW
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* William Wilson <fluffysheap@gmail.com>
>
> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:46 PM
>
> *Subject:* [Norton AntiSpam] [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary
> plane
>
>
>
> This is great news.  Thanks Charlie and Bob :)
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> William Wilson wrote:
>
> I am in the market for a plane and would prefer a rotary-powered, as I ha=
ve
> lots of experience working with rotary engines.  As a bonus, homebuilt
> planes all seem to get about twice as much fuel economy as factory built
> planes.  So that is nice too.  I know there are a few rotary powered plan=
es
> available for sale, but not too many.
>
> I have neither the time nor desire to build my own plane, so my question =
is
> more about maintenance and inspections.  I'm not an official A&P and I do=
n't
> know if I will be able to find an A&P to work on a home built plane with =
a
> car engine in it!  I am happy to do engine maintenance, but am not entire=
ly
> clear on the legality of it, since I would not be the original builder.
>
> Similarly when it is eventually time for an engine rebuild, would I be ab=
le
> to remove the engine, take it down to Atkins (who are not far from me) an=
d
> have them rebuild it, or rebuild it myself, and then reinstall it, and fi=
nd
> an A&P to just sign off on the work?
>
> Plan B is to buy whatever plane even if it has a Lycosaurus, but when tim=
e
> for overhaul comes, get rid of the Lycoming and replace it with a rotary.
>  Thought in this case is to get the rotary tuned, a little broken in and
> running on a stand in the hangar in advance, so that when the time comes =
to
> do the swap it can be done with a minimum of downtime.  (I know it cannot
> really be tuned for altitude in this way but it is better than nothing!).
>  But again, the fact that I would not be the original builder makes me wo=
rry
> about legalities.  I have heard that this has been done so question is mo=
re
> about the how.
>
> I do not really understand all the law involved and hopefully somebody he=
re
> can help.  Thanks!
>
>
>
> I can't speak with authority, but I can speak from experience.
>
> Experimental homebuilts can be maintained or modified by anyone. No FAA
> blessings required. Annual condition inspections must be performed by eit=
her
> the holder of the 'repairman's certificate' (only available to the builde=
r
> of record) or by the holder of an A&P ticket (no IA required).
>
> Once the airworthiness certificate is awarded, *anyone* can do any
> maintenance, repairs, modifications etc desired. The post-modification
> requirements vary somewhat from plane to plane depending on when the a/w =
was
> issued, but in general terms, you notify the FAA in writing that major mo=
ds
> were made, ask for a defined test area, make a log entry detailing the
> return to 'phase one' testing, fly test flights for (typically) 5 hours,
> then make another log entry saying that the plane has been tested with th=
e
> mods & is being returned to 'phase two' (normal operational) status.
>
> 'Major modification' isn't clearly defined, but if you have to ask, it's
> major. :-)
>
> The availability of an A&P to sign off condition inspections is all over
> the map (literally). It's never been a problem for me, but in some parts =
of
> the country people can't find an A&P who will sign off  *any* homebuilt, =
no
> matter what engine. If you have that problem,  get to know the guys who s=
ign
> off the crop dusters in your area.
>
> Hope that helps....
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div>... and in the price of parts (rarely necessary), </div>
<div>... and that I can work on the engine myself (rarely required),</div>
<div>...plus it runs smooth as silk,</div>
<div>...and starts when hot.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Mark S.=A0</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 _I_</div>
<div>=A0------{0}------</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Patrick Panzera=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:panzera@experimental-aviation.com"=
>panzera@experimental-aviation.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"blue">
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Mark,</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I know you are saying that you are =
not overly concerned with BSFC, but what you=92ve described is exactly that=
.</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If the IO-540 and the rotary both h=
ave similar BSFC, then equal fuel consumption will net equal power.</span><=
/font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That is to say, if you are burning =
10.5 GPH @ 20=94 MP, you are making about 123 HP figuring .51 lbs per hp/hr=
. BSFC</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If the IO-540 is making only 123 HP=
 and its BSFC is also .51, then it too will burn only 10.5 GPH</span></font=
></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If your BSFC is as good as .49 lbs =
per hp/hr then 10.5 GPH would yield a little over 128 HP.</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">128 HP with the IO-540 with a BSFC =
of only .51 would net 10.88 GPH.</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The difference between mogas and 10=
0LL is where the real savings might be.</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Pat</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE:=
 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=A0</span></font></p>
<div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: me=
dium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt =
solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3D"center"><font face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr align=3D"center" width=3D"100%" size=3D"2">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FO=
NT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Ta=
homa" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Rota=
ry motors in aircraft [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net=
" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>] <b><span style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Steitle<br>
<b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 03, 20=
09 5:24 AM<br><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> Rotary mo=
tors in aircraft<br><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b=
> [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">William,</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">I&#39;ll throw my 2 cents worth in here.=A0 Regardinging fuel burn, I&#39=
;m not overly concerned with bsfc, although its not that bad if you&#39;re =
running EFI.=A0 What we&#39;re really interested in is cost per mile.=A0 I =
have burned nothing but mogas in my 3-rotor Lancair.=A0 The last time I pur=
chased fuel, it was $1.65/gallon.=A0=A0My N/A 3-rotor=A0burns between 10 an=
d 11 gph at around 20&quot; MAP.=A0 So, it will cost me somewhere around $1=
6.50 - $18.15/hr=A0to fly.=A0 Other Lancair ES&#39;s are running IO-540&#39=
;s, or some derivative of the &quot;540&quot;.=A0 From what I hear, they bu=
rn between 12 - 15 gph.=A0 With the cost of 100LL running around $4/gallon,=
 that=A0would cost between=A0$48 - $60/hr in fuel.=A0=A0So, figuring cost p=
er mile, I don&#39;t see how a Lycoming could come close to matching a rota=
ry.=A0=A0The fuel savings alone will more than cover the cost of an overhau=
l.=A0 </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">And hope the Lycoming doesn&#39;t=A0burn a valve, or any number of other =
common ailments which=A0can=A0take a serious bite out of your checkbook.=A0=
=A0Most of the things that break on a piston engine aren&#39;t even present=
 on the rotary.=A0 If it ain&#39;t there, it can&#39;t break.</span></font>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">So, would I use a rotary if I were to do it over, yes, absolutely!</span>=
</font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0=A0=A0 <br>Mark S.</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:31 PM, William Wilson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:flu=
ffysheap@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffysheap@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
/span></font></p>

<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">=
<span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I have not found an accomodating A&amp;P bu=
t I attribute that to the fact that I have not looked yet.=A0 Given that I =
live in Seattle I am pretty sure I can find one.=A0 Seattle is crawling (fl=
uttering?) with homebuilt planes.=A0 If anyone has suggestions, I am listen=
ing, but I had not started searching yet.<br>
<br>Plan is not to take apart a perfectly good flying plane to change the e=
ngine, but ideally to get one with a rotary in it already, or replace only =
at overhaul time.=A0 In each case I save as much on the cheaper engine as I=
 would lose on resale value... and if the plane has the rotary in it to sta=
rt with, I get to pay the lower price up front too, which makes price diffe=
rence just plain better.<br>
<br>For efficiency what I said was that homebuilt planes are more efficient=
 than factory built, not that rotary are more efficient than Lycoming, thou=
gh in that case it should be quite close.=A0 Bad fuel economy of rotary eng=
ine is overstated, economy is comparatively bad at low power &amp; RPM but =
at high power it is not bad at all.=A0 As long as you are not turbocharged,=
 you can run much leaner than a piston engine, making up for less efficient=
 combustion chamber shape.=A0 Rotary BSFC in the lab has gone as low as .37=
5 (for renesis), and .44-.46 measured in real world racing applications eve=
n with traditional type engine.=A0 So I think I would not see a significant=
 difference in fuel economy between rotary and piston.=A0 Weight &amp; drag=
 of the plane it is in will matter more.<br>
<br>In any case all advice is welcome, even dissenting opinions ;)</span></=
font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Mike Wills &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rv-4mike=
@cox.net" target=3D"_blank">rv-4mike@cox.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></=
p></div>

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-=
TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8p=
t; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BOR=
DER-BOTTOM: medium none">

<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">
<div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">William,</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">=A0I highly recommend you check around to make sure you can fin=
d an A&amp;P who will do a condition inspection with the rotary engine inst=
alled BEFORE you commit. Many A&amp;Ps I&#39;ve talked to dont want anythin=
g to do with Experimentals let alone an engine that looks nothing like what=
 they are used to. There&#39;s simply too much potential liability (real or=
 perceived) to go out on a limb like that. The A&amp;P who used to do the c=
ondition inspection on the RV-6A I used to own (Lycoming powered) was willi=
ng to do it because the RV structure is similar to typical spam cans. He wo=
nt have anything to do with wet layup homebuilts (EZs, Cozys, etc...). He d=
oesnt even like doing annuals on Diamond aircraft with the Rotax 912/914 an=
d they are certified.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">=A0If you buy a flying homebuilt that is Lyc or Continental pow=
ered, before you convert it to rotary power seriously think about what you =
are doing to the resale value - if you could ever sell it that is. My guess=
 is that you&#39;ll give up at least $10,000 in resale value, maybe much mo=
re. No big deal if you plan on keeping it for life.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">=A0I dont know where you got the idea that rotaries are more fu=
el efficient. Lycosaurs/Continentals typically have BSFCs in the low .40s. =
The commonly accepted number for a rotary is about .50. Some here seem to d=
o better, others worse. With a grand total of 2 hours on my rotary I cant s=
ay what my experience will be but hope its close to the Lyc I used to fly.<=
/span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">=A0Finally dont underestimate the effort required to make the c=
hange. I started building my RV-4=A0 in late 1995. The airframe was essenti=
ally done in 2000. My first flight was last month. Granted I took longer th=
an many and much of the trouble came from my desire to eliminate the cowl c=
heeks on an already cramped engine compartment. But thats eight years of ti=
nkering to get the engine installed and running to the point where I had en=
ough confidence in it to fly it.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">=A0Not trying to discourage you, but go into this with eyes wid=
e open.</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#888888" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: #888888; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mike Wills</span></font><font=
 color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"COLOR: #888888"></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#888888" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: #888888; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">RV-4 N144MW</span></font><fon=
t color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"COLOR: #888888"></span></font></p></div>=
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">- Show quoted text -</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-=
TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5=
pt 3.4pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none">

<div style=3D"font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p></div>
<div style=3D"font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<p style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span s=
tyle=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</span=
></font></b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt;=
 FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <a title=3D"fluffysheap@gmail.com" href=3D"mailto:flu=
ffysheap@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">William Wilson</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<p><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Arial"=
 size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <a title=
=3D"flyrotary@lancaironline.net" href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net=
" target=3D"_blank">Rotary motors in aircraft</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<p><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Aria=
l" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Sunday, =
March 01, 2009 7:46 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<p><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</span></font></b><font face=3D"A=
rial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> [Nort=
on AntiSpam] [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane</span></fon=
t></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">=
<span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This is great news.=A0 Thanks Charlie and B=
ob :)</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Charlie England &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cee=
ngland@bellsouth.net" target=3D"_blank">ceengland@bellsouth.net</a>&gt; wro=
te:</span></font></p>

<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">William Wilson wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">I am in the market for a plane and would prefer a rotary-powered, as I ha=
ve lots of experience working with rotary engines. =A0As a bonus, homebuilt=
 planes all seem to get about twice as much fuel economy as factory built p=
lanes. =A0So that is nice too. =A0I know there are a few rotary powered pla=
nes available for sale, but not too many.<br>
<br>I have neither the time nor desire to build my own plane, so my questio=
n is more about maintenance and inspections. =A0I&#39;m not an official A&a=
mp;P and I don&#39;t know if I will be able to find an A&amp;P to work on a=
 home built plane with a car engine in it! =A0I am happy to do engine maint=
enance, but am not entirely clear on the legality of it, since I would not =
be the original builder.<br>
<br>Similarly when it is eventually time for an engine rebuild, would I be =
able to remove the engine, take it down to Atkins (who are not far from me)=
 and have them rebuild it, or rebuild it myself, and then reinstall it, and=
 find an A&amp;P to just sign off on the work?<br>
<br>Plan B is to buy whatever plane even if it has a Lycosaurus, but when t=
ime for overhaul comes, get rid of the Lycoming and replace it with a rotar=
y. =A0Thought in this case is to get the rotary tuned, a little broken in a=
nd running on a stand in the hangar in advance, so that when the time comes=
 to do the swap it can be done with a minimum of downtime. =A0(I know it ca=
nnot really be tuned for altitude in this way but it is better than nothing=
!). =A0But again, the fact that I would not be the original builder makes m=
e worry about legalities. =A0I have heard that this has been done so questi=
on is more about the how.<br>
<br>I do not really understand all the law involved and hopefully somebody =
here can help. =A0Thanks!</span></font></p>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">I can&#39;t speak with authority, but I can speak from experience.<br><br=
>Experimental homebuilts can be maintained or modified by anyone. No FAA bl=
essings required. Annual condition inspections must be performed by either =
the holder of the &#39;repairman&#39;s certificate&#39; (only available to =
the builder of record) or by the holder of an A&amp;P ticket (no IA require=
d).<br>
<br>Once the airworthiness certificate is awarded, *anyone* can do any main=
tenance, repairs, modifications etc desired. The post-modification requirem=
ents vary somewhat from plane to plane depending on when the a/w was issued=
, but in general terms, you notify the FAA in writing that major mods were =
made, ask for a defined test area, make a log entry detailing the return to=
 &#39;phase one&#39; testing, fly test flights for (typically) 5 hours, the=
n make another log entry saying that the plane has been tested with the mod=
s &amp; is being returned to &#39;phase two&#39; (normal operational) statu=
s.<br>
<br>&#39;Major modification&#39; isn&#39;t clearly defined, but if you have=
 to ask, it&#39;s major. :-)<br><br>The availability of an A&amp;P to sign =
off condition inspections is all over the map (literally). It&#39;s never b=
een a problem for me, but in some parts of the country people can&#39;t fin=
d an A&amp;P who will sign off =A0*any* homebuilt, no matter what engine. I=
f you have that problem, =A0get to know the guys who sign off the crop dust=
ers in your area.<br>
<br>Hope that helps....<br><font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"COLOR: #8=
88888"><br>Charlie</span></font> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
"><br><br><br><br>--<br>Homepage: =A0<a href=3D"http://www.flyrotary.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.flyrotary.com/</a><br>Archive and UnSub: =A0 <=
a href=3D"http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html</a>=
</span></font></p>
</div></div></div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">=A0</span></font></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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