X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3524541 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:12:23 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090303041146.RIJV13097.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2009 23:11:46 -0500 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id NUBj1b0051CvZmk04UBmC1; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:11:46 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=RgAroyKy78wA:10 a=U1ZaYnf293oA:10 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ADcb_QkoaRv6c8SBoEUA:9 a=pAXxpJYo3qi_obpsNJAA:7 a=QrfbEA00x3FpIClTIsO6It8vclAA:4 a=MInBT2ynV54A:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=QQZFqN_QLZNEz8BY:21 a=nQmfi9niISuXx5gp:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=fcHbsiC7ca7A0i0BadkA:9 a=_Ddspkdxg1CRU9bkpXwA:7 a=SzFY3C4VAOq_7UD6aKQ97uUyVA0A:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 a=-K1qMbr-rfkA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <005501c99bb6$4e54c020$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:12:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01C99B73.3FDB97F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C99B73.3FDB97F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable William, I highly recommend you check around to make sure you can find an A&P = who will do a condition inspection with the rotary engine installed = BEFORE you commit. Many A&Ps I've talked to dont want anything to do = with Experimentals let alone an engine that looks nothing like what they = are used to. There's simply too much potential liability (real or = perceived) to go out on a limb like that. The A&P who used to do the = condition inspection on the RV-6A I used to own (Lycoming powered) was = willing to do it because the RV structure is similar to typical spam = cans. He wont have anything to do with wet layup homebuilts (EZs, Cozys, = etc...). He doesnt even like doing annuals on Diamond aircraft with the = Rotax 912/914 and they are certified. If you buy a flying homebuilt that is Lyc or Continental powered, = before you convert it to rotary power seriously think about what you are = doing to the resale value - if you could ever sell it that is. My guess = is that you'll give up at least $10,000 in resale value, maybe much = more. No big deal if you plan on keeping it for life. I dont know where you got the idea that rotaries are more fuel = efficient. Lycosaurs/Continentals typically have BSFCs in the low .40s. = The commonly accepted number for a rotary is about .50. Some here seem = to do better, others worse. With a grand total of 2 hours on my rotary I = cant say what my experience will be but hope its close to the Lyc I used = to fly. Finally dont underestimate the effort required to make the change. I = started building my RV-4 in late 1995. The airframe was essentially = done in 2000. My first flight was last month. Granted I took longer than = many and much of the trouble came from my desire to eliminate the cowl = cheeks on an already cramped engine compartment. But thats eight years = of tinkering to get the engine installed and running to the point where = I had enough confidence in it to fly it. Not trying to discourage you, but go into this with eyes wide open. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Wilson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:46 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a = rotary plane This is great news. Thanks Charlie and Bob :) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Charlie England = wrote: William Wilson wrote: I am in the market for a plane and would prefer a rotary-powered, = as I have lots of experience working with rotary engines. As a bonus, = homebuilt planes all seem to get about twice as much fuel economy as = factory built planes. So that is nice too. I know there are a few = rotary powered planes available for sale, but not too many. I have neither the time nor desire to build my own plane, so my = question is more about maintenance and inspections. I'm not an official = A&P and I don't know if I will be able to find an A&P to work on a home = built plane with a car engine in it! I am happy to do engine = maintenance, but am not entirely clear on the legality of it, since I = would not be the original builder. Similarly when it is eventually time for an engine rebuild, would = I be able to remove the engine, take it down to Atkins (who are not far = from me) and have them rebuild it, or rebuild it myself, and then = reinstall it, and find an A&P to just sign off on the work? Plan B is to buy whatever plane even if it has a Lycosaurus, but = when time for overhaul comes, get rid of the Lycoming and replace it = with a rotary. Thought in this case is to get the rotary tuned, a = little broken in and running on a stand in the hangar in advance, so = that when the time comes to do the swap it can be done with a minimum of = downtime. (I know it cannot really be tuned for altitude in this way = but it is better than nothing!). But again, the fact that I would not = be the original builder makes me worry about legalities. I have heard = that this has been done so question is more about the how. I do not really understand all the law involved and hopefully = somebody here can help. Thanks! I can't speak with authority, but I can speak from experience. Experimental homebuilts can be maintained or modified by anyone. No = FAA blessings required. Annual condition inspections must be performed = by either the holder of the 'repairman's certificate' (only available to = the builder of record) or by the holder of an A&P ticket (no IA = required). Once the airworthiness certificate is awarded, *anyone* can do any = maintenance, repairs, modifications etc desired. The post-modification = requirements vary somewhat from plane to plane depending on when the a/w = was issued, but in general terms, you notify the FAA in writing that = major mods were made, ask for a defined test area, make a log entry = detailing the return to 'phase one' testing, fly test flights for = (typically) 5 hours, then make another log entry saying that the plane = has been tested with the mods & is being returned to 'phase two' (normal = operational) status. 'Major modification' isn't clearly defined, but if you have to ask, = it's major. :-) The availability of an A&P to sign off condition inspections is all = over the map (literally). It's never been a problem for me, but in some = parts of the country people can't find an A&P who will sign off *any* = homebuilt, no matter what engine. If you have that problem, get to know = the guys who sign off the crop dusters in your area. Hope that helps.... Charlie -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C99B73.3FDB97F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
William,
 
 I highly recommend you check = around to make=20 sure you can find an A&P who will do a condition inspection with the = rotary=20 engine installed BEFORE you commit. Many A&Ps I've talked to dont = want=20 anything to do with Experimentals let alone an engine that looks nothing = like=20 what they are used to. There's simply too much potential liability (real = or=20 perceived) to go out on a limb like that. The A&P who used to do the = condition inspection on the RV-6A I used to own (Lycoming powered) was = willing=20 to do it because the RV structure is similar to typical spam cans. He = wont have=20 anything to do with wet layup homebuilts (EZs, Cozys, etc...). He doesnt = even=20 like doing annuals on Diamond aircraft with the Rotax 912/914 and they = are=20 certified.
 
 If you buy a flying homebuilt = that is Lyc or=20 Continental powered, before you convert it to rotary power seriously = think about=20 what you are doing to the resale value - if you could ever sell it that = is. My=20 guess is that you'll give up at least $10,000 in resale value, maybe = much more.=20 No big deal if you plan on keeping it for life.
 
 I dont know where you got the = idea that=20 rotaries are more fuel efficient. Lycosaurs/Continentals typically have = BSFCs in=20 the low .40s. The commonly accepted number for a rotary is about .50. = Some here=20 seem to do better, others worse. With a grand total of 2 hours on my = rotary I=20 cant say what my experience will be but hope its close to the Lyc I used = to=20 fly.
 
 Finally dont underestimate the = effort=20 required to make the change. I started building my RV-4  in late = 1995. The=20 airframe was essentially done in 2000. My first flight was last month. = Granted I=20 took longer than many and much of the trouble came from my desire to = eliminate=20 the cowl cheeks on an already cramped engine compartment. But thats = eight years=20 of tinkering to get the engine installed and running to the point where = I had=20 enough confidence in it to fly it.
 
 Not trying to discourage you, but = go into=20 this with eyes wide open.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Wilson
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 = 7:46=20 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane

This is great news.  Thanks Charlie and Bob = :)

On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Charlie = England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:
William Wilson wrote:
I=20 am in the market for a plane and would prefer a rotary-powered, as = I have=20 lots of experience working with rotary engines.  As a bonus,=20 homebuilt planes all seem to get about twice as much fuel economy = as=20 factory built planes.  So that is nice too.  I know = there are a=20 few rotary powered planes available for sale, but not too = many.

I=20 have neither the time nor desire to build my own plane, so my = question is=20 more about maintenance and inspections.  I'm not an official = A&P=20 and I don't know if I will be able to find an A&P to work on a = home=20 built plane with a car engine in it!  I am happy to do engine = maintenance, but am not entirely clear on the legality of it, = since I=20 would not be the original builder.

Similarly when it is = eventually=20 time for an engine rebuild, would I be able to remove the engine, = take it=20 down to Atkins (who are not far from me) and have them rebuild it, = or=20 rebuild it myself, and then reinstall it, and find an A&P to = just sign=20 off on the work?

Plan B is to buy whatever plane even if it = has a=20 Lycosaurus, but when time for overhaul comes, get rid of the = Lycoming and=20 replace it with a rotary.  Thought in this case is to get the = rotary=20 tuned, a little broken in and running on a stand in the hangar in = advance,=20 so that when the time comes to do the swap it can be done with a = minimum=20 of downtime.  (I know it cannot really be tuned for altitude = in this=20 way but it is better than nothing!).  But again, the fact = that I=20 would not be the original builder makes me worry about legalities. =  I=20 have heard that this has been done so question is more about the=20 how.

I do not really understand all the law involved and = hopefully=20 somebody here can help.  Thanks!

I = can't=20 speak with authority, but I can speak from = experience.

Experimental=20 homebuilts can be maintained or modified by anyone. No FAA blessings = required. Annual condition inspections must be performed by either = the=20 holder of the 'repairman's certificate' (only available to the = builder of=20 record) or by the holder of an A&P ticket (no IA = required).

Once=20 the airworthiness certificate is awarded, *anyone* can do any = maintenance,=20 repairs, modifications etc desired. The post-modification = requirements vary=20 somewhat from plane to plane depending on when the a/w was issued, = but in=20 general terms, you notify the FAA in writing that major mods were = made, ask=20 for a defined test area, make a log entry detailing the return to = 'phase=20 one' testing, fly test flights for (typically) 5 hours, then make = another=20 log entry saying that the plane has been tested with the mods & = is being=20 returned to 'phase two' (normal operational) status.

'Major=20 modification' isn't clearly defined, but if you have to ask, it's = major.=20 :-)

The availability of an A&P to sign off condition = inspections=20 is all over the map (literally). It's never been a problem for me, = but in=20 some parts of the country people can't find an A&P who will sign = off=20  *any* homebuilt, no matter what engine. If you have that = problem,=20  get to know the guys who sign off the crop dusters in your=20 area.

Hope that helps....

Charlie




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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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