X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3523178 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Mar 2009 08:26:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090302132603.TZQL3201.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:26:03 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Missing Key was : [FlyRotary] Re: Still low oil pressure Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:26:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C99B10.9D714D00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acma5oO7/DbeCrNRQ6KnZwkOXkEsfAAUecCw In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20090302132603.TZQL3201.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C99B10.9D714D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very good point, Tom. Don't know how I could have forgotten the problem I had with the key for the oil pump shaft. In fact, I flew for 10 hours with the key missing - only the clamping force of the nut on the shaft holding the gear to the shoulder of the shaft. While at Shady Bend (Tracy Crook), I unintentionally left my throttle at full open after we had comparing throttle bodies and intakes. The next morning was a bit cool and I was using 50 weight oil. I hopped into go do some flying with Tracy and Finn Lassen, when I fired up the engine (Having forgotten to close the throttle from the previous days inspection), the engine caught and immediately zoomed to 5000 rpm before I could hastily pull the throttle back. I noticed lower than normal (around 20-25 psi) oil pressure while taxing to take off and just told myself it was the cold weather, cranky sensor or gauge, but by the time I got to take off position, I notice the oil pressure had never gotten above 25 psi when normally at taxi rpm I would have around 40-50 psi. Fortunately, I could not bring myself to take off with that condition (even though I kept telling myself there was nothing wrong). After much trouble shooting, I decided I had to pull the engine off (thankfully, Tracy Crook had a great facility to do that in) . I removed the oil pan and as I took it over to wash it out, I hear a metallic clanking in the pan - yes, you know what it was - a much battered key for the oil pump shaft. When I had pushed the sprocket on the shaft, I had pushed out the key but unfortunately, it did not drop down. It got trapped between the sprocket wheel and the soft aluminum oil pump housing (the indention was in the soft aluminum) from the force torquing the nut down. This had push the sprocket against the trapped key which in turn had pushed the key against the housing and trapped it there - probably until the first engine run. Fortunately, I had torqued the nut down as specified - which some folks think is a bit high for that small a nut, but glad I had. I'm also glad in hind sight I left the throttle open and it was a cool morning - who knows when it might have let go. So now when I rebuild an engine, I take a small paper clip and bend the end out so I can stick it in the keyway hole after putting the sprocket on. If it goes in all the way - the key is not in its slot! Moral of the story, it can happen to any of us - so take time and check. As Tom mentioned, it can be a bit of a hassle to get the keyway in the slot and sprocket on - if it falls out (as it will most of the time) and you hear it/see it you are OK. But, if it gets trapped as my key did - you won't get that clue. So use a paper clip, inspection or something to insure the key is where you think it is. Also pay attention to your gauges and your gut they are both always telling you something - if you will only listen {:>) Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of tom koftinoff Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 10:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Still low oil pressure Hello Chris/Tracy, This is probably not the solution for the problem, but I had a similar situation with my second rebuild for my RX-7 car. I didn't experience it with my first aircraft 13B rotary engine rebuild. During my second rebuild, when I was installing the oil pump chain and sprocket assembly, the KEY that aligns the oil pump sprocket was not properly installed. I was in a hurry to install the KEY, and I never positioned it properly as I slipped the oil pump chain and sprocket assembly. After installing the front cover, I found the KEY laying on the ground. If I had assembled the engine that way, I wouldn't have had very much oil pressure ( or possibly none at all). That KEY appears simple to install, but I found it a bit tricky. Just my two cents. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Still low oil pressure Really hard to draw any conclusions without knowing what 'a little flow' is. At cranking speed it should be enough to make a good sized puddle on the floor in 3 - 5 seconds. Does your first paragraph imply that there was more oil flow before the filter than after it? If true, that is suspicious. If you still suspect priming as the problem, have you tried to force some heavy weight oil (40 - 50 wt) back toward the pump with air pressure? If there is any significant oil flow through the pump, it ought to prime immediately unless it is a totally clapped out pump. BTW, are you sure your oil pressure reading was accurate and not just an instrument problem? Tracy On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:58 PM, The Mallorys wrote: No luck today. I filled the line out of the engine just after the pump, then cranked it over with the starter. I did get a little flow, but not very much. I reconnected the hose, and added components as I went, checking that I had oil flow after each. Still had flow after the cooler and just barely a trickle after the filter, where the oil should go back into the engine. From this I am thinking either I am not picking up enough oil, or the pump isn't pumping enough oil. The only way I can think to eliminate the oil pickup as a problem is to drop the pan, and feed directly into the engine from a container. This will be a little bit of a pain, as I will have to remove the radiator, drain the pan, then remove it. I don't know how to check the pump. Any ideas or suggestions? Is there a way to check it without removing the rear eccentric shaft bolt? It was a royal pain to remove last time, and I really don't want to have to remove it again if there is another way to check that the pump is pumping. I am not using the apex seal oil pump. All I did was cap off the hole on the outside of the block, and left all the internal parts. I don't think this should make a difference, but thought I would mention it in case. Chris _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1978 - Release Date: 03/01/09 07:04:00 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C99B10.9D714D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Very good point, = Tom.

 

  Don’t know how I could = have forgotten the problem I had with the key for the oil pump shaft.  = In fact, I flew for 10 hours with the key missing – only the clamping force = of the nut on the shaft holding the gear to the shoulder of the shaft.  = While at Shady Bend (Tracy Crook), I unintentionally left my throttle at full = open after  we had comparing throttle bodies and =  intakes.

 

  The next morning was a bit = cool and I was using 50 weight oil.  I hopped into go do some flying with = Tracy and Finn Lassen, when I fired up the engine (Having forgotten to close the = throttle from the previous days inspection), the engine caught and immediately = zoomed to 5000 rpm before I could hastily pull the throttle back.  I noticed = lower than normal (around 20-25 psi) oil pressure while taxing to take off and = just told myself it was the cold weather, cranky sensor or gauge, but by the = time I got to take off position, I notice the oil pressure had never gotten = above 25 psi when normally at taxi rpm I would have around 40-50 psi. =

 

Fortunately, I could not bring = myself to take off with that condition (even though I kept telling myself there = was nothing wrong).  After much trouble shooting, I decided I had to pull the = engine off (thankfully, Tracy Crook had a great facility to do that in) .  I = removed the oil pan and as I took it over to wash it out, I hear a metallic = clanking in the pan – yes, you know what it was – a much battered key = for the oil pump shaft.   When I had pushed the sprocket on the shaft, = I had pushed out the key but unfortunately, it did not drop down.  It got trapped between the sprocket wheel and the soft aluminum oil pump = housing (the indention was in the soft aluminum) from the force torquing the nut = down.  This  had push the sprocket against the trapped key which in turn = had pushed the key against the housing and trapped it there – probably = until the first engine run.  Fortunately, I had torqued the nut down as specified – which some folks think is a bit high for that small a = nut, but glad I had.  I’m also glad in hind sight I left the = throttle open and it was a cool morning – who knows when it might have let = go.

 

So now when I rebuild an engine, I = take a small paper clip and bend the end out so I can stick it in the keyway = hole after putting the sprocket on.  If it goes in all the way – = the key is not in its slot!

 

Moral of the story, it can happen = to any  of us – so take time and check. As Tom mentioned, it can be a bit of = a hassle to get the keyway in the slot and sprocket on – if it falls = out (as it will most of the time) and you hear it/see it you are OK.  = But, if it gets trapped as my key did – you won’t get that = clue.  So use a paper clip, inspection or something to insure the key is where you = think it is.

 

 Also pay attention to your = gauges and your gut they are both always telling you something – if you = will only listen {:>)

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of tom koftinoff
Sent: Sunday, March 01, = 2009 10:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Still low oil pressure

 

Hello Chris/Tracy,

 

This is probably not the solution for the problem, but I had a similar situation with = my second rebuild for my RX-7 car.  I didn't experience it with my = first aircraft 13B rotary engine rebuild.   During my second = rebuild, when I was installing the oil pump chain and sprocket assembly, the KEY = that aligns the oil pump sprocket was not properly installed.  I = was in a hurry to install the KEY, and I never positioned it properly as I = slipped the oil pump chain and sprocket assembly.   After installing the = front cover, I found the KEY laying on the ground.   = If I had assembled the engine that way, I wouldn't have had very much oil = pressure ( or possibly none at all).   That KEY appears simple to = install, but I found it a bit tricky.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Tom

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Tracy Crook

Sent: Sunday, = March 01, 2009 6:46 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Still low oil pressure

 

Really hard to = draw any conclusions without knowing what 'a little flow' is.   At = cranking speed it should be enough to make a good sized puddle on the floor  = in 3 - 5 seconds.  Does your first paragraph imply that there was more oil = flow before the filter than after it?  If true, that is = suspicious. 

If you still suspect priming as the problem, have you tried to force = some heavy weight oil (40 - 50 wt) back toward the pump with air pressure?  If = there is any significant oil flow through the pump, it ought to prime = immediately unless it is a totally clapped out pump.

BTW, are you sure your oil pressure reading was accurate  and not = just an instrument problem?

Tracy

On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:58 PM, The Mallorys <candtmallory@cebridge.net&g= t; wrote:

No luck today.

 

I filled the line out of the engine just after the pump, then cranked it over = with the starter.  I did get a little flow, but not very much.  I = reconnected the hose, and added components as I went, checking that I had oil flow = after each.  Still had flow after the cooler and just barely a trickle = after the filter, where the oil should go back into the engine.  From this I = am thinking either I am not picking up enough oil, or the pump isn’t = pumping enough oil.

 

The only way I can think to eliminate the oil pickup as a problem is to drop the = pan, and feed directly into the engine from a container.  This will be a = little bit of a pain, as I will have to remove the radiator, drain the pan, = then remove it.

 

I don’t know how to check the pump.  Any ideas or = suggestions?  Is there a way to check it without removing the rear eccentric shaft bolt?  It was a royal pain to remove last time, and I really = don’t want to have to remove it again if there is another way to check that = the pump is pumping.

 

I am not using the apex seal oil pump.  All I did was cap off the hole on = the outside of the block, and left all the internal parts.  I = don’t think this should make a difference, but thought I would mention it in = case.

 

Chris

 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1978 - Release Date: = 03/01/09 07:04:00



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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