X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.25] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3519008 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:38:16 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.25; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so990573qwh.25 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:37:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=tsu196PUWWvV3LHF6cXiKrsksR0GZTElmhruq30wLeY=; b=bMsbOcBq2B1HkebVOVmYIuKxobykcGHLW828GuUZX07b5zr1HR5smb/S6xV1Wjbmee +tqqptYHTMxD4IQ4YkkDo03n7eIm/H808jtmM9X/IU+Ynk1ANwnrdL+AKJDK5xMGsrdh eqPTSXnPc8/1lJQWCaOwUfJZYvyweVyHyivNA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=asTbHHcEvXcUE8mXU7QL7NRsNeMx+6i/+zfPYAprvuS+eqiHsurBh+XhcGHj1WLhz6 nVb9jNJF31pRzk6rj39dzQAh0Yt36lBB+l9sKFfQmPUElRnwa5J99tegTU1qXPE6/gVZ 1jGt6lI1YfOJg4sdXHTFLqetfY+tUr7ZX8LlM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.46.16 with SMTP id h16mr3874224qaf.175.1235734659932; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:37:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:37:39 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0902270337x24f7db59k13e8ba273345d0d5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] ethanol From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175d67067124500463e4e5ce --0015175d67067124500463e4e5ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, Little black flakes sounds like it could possibly be small pieces of the fuel lines flaking off. I assume your fuel system returns unused fuel back to the tanks. You may want to set up a bench test to see if this is what's going on. BTW, I believe that I was the one that stated that I have yet to find ethanol in any fuel samples. I stand by that statement as I routinely test each batch. And I haven't seen any warning labels on the pumps in my area, not that that means anything. Then again, who knows what changes may become 'mandatory" in the next four years in the name of saving planet earth. For now, I'll keep testing each batch. Mark S. P.S. Stay tuned for a DNA muffler update coming soon. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > Well things seem a little slow today so how about re-opening a can of > worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding ethanol in fuel. > Frankly at the time I didnt know much about the subject but have been > reading a little since I'm burning auto fuel. > > At the time I think it was Al G. who said so far he hasnt found any auto > fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologize. So far I havent > found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell from my reading ALL > auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% now. > > Looks like the concerns are: > 1) Vapor lock > 2) Potential corrosion of aluminum components in the fuel system. > 3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?) components in the fuel system. > 4) Water. > 5) Dislodging contaminants from previously used fuels. > > I believe (hope?) the vapor lock issues to be a non-problem with our EFI > systems. The potential corrosion issues seem to be overstated for ethanol, > clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose in my airplane is Earls > Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "synthetic rubber". I > assume they mean neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I assume the > injectors themselves are safe? I thought Pro-Seal is also supposed to be > ethanol safe. My airplane is new so there should be no issue with dislodged > contaminants. > > This leaves the issue of ethanol's affinity for water. Other than always > keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the tank and condensation any > ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it doesnt happen? > > I bring this subject up because for the second time since I've started > flying I've found a little contamination during my pre-flight when sumping > the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized black flakes in > it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The first > time I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and cleaned > them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure nothing bad > got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the tanks from when > they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro Seal. > > Any comments on ethanol in general or my fuel contamination issue are > welcome. > > Mike Wills > RV-4 N144MW > --0015175d67067124500463e4e5ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike,

Little black flakes sounds like it could possibly be small pi= eces of the fuel lines flaking off.=A0 I assume your fuel system returns un= used fuel back to the tanks.=A0 You may want to set up a bench test to see = if this is what's going on.

BTW, I believe that I was the one that stated that I have yet to find e= thanol in any fuel samples.=A0 I stand by that statement as I routinely tes= t each batch.=A0 And I haven't seen any warning labels on the pumps in = my area, not that that means anything.=A0 Then again, who knows what change= s may become
'mandatory" in the next four years in the name of saving planet ea= rth.=A0 For now, I'll keep testing each batch.

Mark S. =A0
<= br>P.S.=A0 Stay tuned for a DNA muffler update coming soon.


On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Well things seem a little slow today s= o how about=20 re-opening a can of worms? We had a brief discussion a while back regarding= =20 ethanol in fuel. Frankly at the time I didnt know much about the subject bu= t=20 have been reading a little since I'm burning auto fuel.
=A0
At the time I think it was Al G. who s= aid so far he=20 hasnt found any auto fuel with ethanol in it. If I got that wrong I apologi= ze.=20 So far I havent found any auto fuel that DOESNT. As far as I can tell from = my=20 reading ALL auto fuel in CA has at least 6% and most is at 10% now.<= /div>
=A0
Looks like the concerns are:
1) Vapor lock
2) Potential corrosion of aluminum com= ponents in=20 the fuel system.
3) Deterioration of rubber (and other?= ) components=20 in the fuel system.
4) Water.
5) Dislodging contaminants from previo= usly used=20 fuels.
=A0
I believe (hope?)=A0the vapor lock iss= ues to be=20 a non-problem with our EFI systems. The potential corrosion issues=A0seem t= o=20 be overstated for ethanol, clearly a problem with methanol. All the hose in= my=20 airplane is Earls Perform-O-Flex which according to their website is "= synthetic=20 rubber". I assume they mean neoprene which I gather is ethanol safe. I= assume=20 the injectors themselves are safe?=A0I thought=A0Pro-Seal is also supposed= =20 to be ethanol safe. My airplane is new so there should be no issue with=20 dislodged contaminants.
=A0
This leaves the issue of ethanol's= affinity for=20 water. Other than always keeping the tanks full to minimize airspace in the= tank=20 and condensation any ideas on how to deal with this other than hoping it do= esnt=20 happen?
=A0
I bring this subject up because for th= e second time=20 since I've started flying I've found a little contamination during = my pre-flight=20 when sumping the tanks. Each fuel sample has a few ground pepper sized blac= k=20 flakes in it. Whatever it is it crumbles to powder between the fingers. The= =20 first time=A0I completely drained the tanks and pulled the fuel filters and= =20 cleaned them. When I refilled the tanks I used a Mr. Funnel to make sure no= thing=20 bad got added. So whatever this is, its residual junk in the tanks from whe= n=20 they were built. Or its something (like ethanol) attacking the Pro=20 Seal.
=A0
Any comments on ethanol in general or = my fuel=20 contamination issue are welcome.
=A0
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW

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