X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3454372 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:59:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.102; envelope-from=bobperk9@bellsouth.net Received: from fwebmail14.isp.att.net ([207.115.9.154]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20090127055906H0200h03oue>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:59:06 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [207.115.9.154] Received: from [74.249.244.11] by fwebmail14.isp.att.net; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:59:06 +0000 From: "Bob Perkinson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:59:06 +0000 Message-Id: <012720090559.20850.497EA2A9000907B00000517222230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFC7059D0A9F0D010D@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 30 2008) X-Authenticated-Sender: Ym9icGVyazlAYmVsbHNvdXRoLm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20850_1233035946_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20850_1233035946_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, I have not read through all the post in this subject yet, so I don't k= now if this has been discussed.=20 What would it take to pressure test the O rings? Could you pressurize the = cooling system and check for leakage into the rotor housing, or could you p= ressurize the rotor housing and check for leakage into the coolant section.= I would think the easest methode would be to cover the exhaust and intake= ports and pressurize the rotor housing through one of the spark plug holes= , rotating the shaft to equlize the pressure in all three chambers. Air le= akage through the side seals would be noticed in the oil galeries, and if t= he O ring leaked then air leakage could be heard in the coolant system. Is= this a valad line of thinking? Bob Perkinson -------------- Original message from "Al Gietzen" : -= ------------- Chris; =20 For every challenge we overcome, we getto enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you= =E2=80=99re having lots of satisfactionopportunities! =20 All other things being normal, my experiencewould suggest that getting to 2= 10 or 220 should not be a problem. Duringinitial testing, I had run my 20B= temps to those levels a number of times. No issue. My concern would be whether or not theair was purged =E2=80=93 or that the = temp read out was not correct.=20=20 =20 My cooling system bleeds out well, butit does take at least one run up to t= emp, and then some added coolant. Onone occasion I had pumped air into the= system to pressurize for leak test, andthen forgot to purge that out befor= e making some =E2=80=98tuning=E2=80=99 runs onthe ground. Before the temp = read over 200, I heard the thumping sound of boiling.Yikes! Apparently air= at the temp pickup. Even that did not result in anycoolant leaks in the ho= usings. =20 I recalibrated the temp channel on theEM2, had to change from the default n= umbers to get a correct reading. Ifyou haven=E2=80=99t already checked cal= ibration, it may be worth it. The thermisteris non-linear, so calibrate to = a low end temp of about 130, and high end at 210=E2=80=93 or whatever your = local boiling point is. Using a measured temp watercontainer is most accura= te. I then checked my temp gun (pyrometer) on aspot of flat black paint at= the pump outlet to double check. =20 Hang in there, buddy! =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] OnBehal= f Of Christopher Barber Sent: Sunday, January 25, 200910:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying paninto the fire....Arrgh =20 Perhaps one day I will post withgood news. However, today is not the day. = I have really been having somefun as I move my project from "proof of conce= pt mode" to "flightprep mode". The engine and wires have been my focus sin= ce I had torebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure. = (BTW, Imay have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that= later). =20 Since I have seemingly gottenmost my electrical gremlins tamed as in the en= gine running, the alternatorscharging and lights working properly, I was go= nna start to actually hook up myDynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel = today. I was also gonna takeout my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to check o= ut one last time (my EM2backlight stopped working so I figured I would send= it all in now while I tiedup loose ends).=20 =20 Since I was about to send mycomputers in and would not be able to run the e= ngine for a while I couldn'tresist pushing the plane out of the hangar and = crank her up. She startedup as expected. I taxied around a bit making my = "airplane" intoa loud and expensive "go-kart". I shut down after a few min= utesas the temps started to rise. =20 I let the bird sit for a bit andwanted to restart it. Hmmm, not starting. = Hmmmm. Let is sit abit more. Try again. Still no joy. I sat there for a= minute andremembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the las= t couple oftimes I ran the engine. UHOH! When I had to build this engine = itwas premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initialrun. = The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the rotorhousings= .=20 =20 I took a big breath and went back tothe exhaust.....there was a bit of dirt= y liquid at the exhaust tip. Damn. Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (= no offense Chrissi...I am aman) and go remove a sparkplug and take a loo= k. Sure enough Iremoved the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of = liquid. I handturned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it= , damn-itdamn-it! Coolant in the housing. Checked the front rotor and sam= ething, but less liquid. Damn. =20 Ok, when this happened to my rebuiltfirst engine I blamed myself as I was i= n a serious learning curve. I ranit hot without a prop, too hot with a pro= p and without propersensors. I really should have been surprised if I didn= 't fry it. So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, end= and centerplates etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine. I TO= OK EXTREMEcare as to not to ever let it get too hot. I would shut it down = if it gotbetween 210 and 220. ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees before = I shutit down and that was only for a matter of couple of seconds. None th= eless something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings a= gain. I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased fromPine= apple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustratedwebsite). = It is my understanding if that if the engine gets too hot these"O" rings f= ail and let coolant seep through. Oh, I sooooooohope it is just the "O" ri= ngs and the hardware=20was spared. Allthe hardware is new and professional= ly ported by Mazdatrix to a medium streetport...I really was developing som= e power..... =20 I spoke with my engineer friend,Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation busin= ess with R&D as a major factoras well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 = and he and I are gonna lookinto what I missed. Verify that my sensors are = working properly, checkthe cooling system for proper flow again among other= things. Veryfrustrating though. I am, however, getting very good at remo= ving myengine from the plane. I had it off and sitting on the work table i= n onlyabout an hour. I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I can = getBlaine over for some joint brain duty. On a positive note, there are an= umber of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, thisis giving= me the perfect opportunity to do so. They will be much easierto improve w= ith the engine off. =20 Now to resign myself to yet anotherengine build as we determine the why. =20 And, as to another"why". I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in my = fuelstrakes. As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the oldepoxy/J= effco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months agodue to= the Jeffco peeling away. Well, as I was poking around the hangarlooking f= or something I had placed as to be able to find it easylater......yeah, rig= ht, I came across my old Jeffco bottles. Hmmmm, theHardener is labeled 319= 1 and the Resin is labeled 9700. Now, I rememberthat when I ordered it a f= ew years ago it was 9700. I rememberspecifically as when I first ordered f= rom AS&S they sent the wrong stuffand I returned it for the 9700. THIS tim= e I ordered new Jeffco, but choosenot to use it and just use straight EZpox= y for my strakes, however, in the neworder BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin= were labeled 9700. My currentthought is that I used the Hardener that AS&= S supplied with the kitassuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was = the correct one to use withthe 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the= proper number. It wasnot until the new order arrived a few months ago and= I saw both the hardenerand resin are both 9700 and finding the original bo= ttles from a few years agothat I would have ever discovered a problem.=20= =20 =20 I intend to send a email to thecompany that bought Jeffco and see if they c= an verify this conclusion. =20 As always y'all's insight,commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remark= s are anticipated andrelished. Please though, no gee Chris, you sure seem = to be having a lotof problems. Yes and No...I just like to share more .= Inthe tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, this= is thetime to break things. Much easier to deal with now in my own hangar= andnot on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my walle= t isscreaming. =20 So, the fun starts when???????? :-) =20 All the best, =20 Chris Barber Houston --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20850_1233035946_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20850_1233035946_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20850_1233035946_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=20 OK, I have not read through all the post in this subject yet, so I don't kn= ow if this has been discussed.

What would it take to pressure test = the O rings?  Could you pressurize the cooling system and check for le= akage into the rotor housing, or could you pressurize the rotor housing and= check for leakage into the coolant section.  I would think the easest= methode would be to cover the exhaust and intake ports and pressurize the = rotor housing through one of the spark plug holes, rotating the shaft to eq= ulize the pressure in all three chambers.  Air leakage through the sid= e seals would be noticed in the oil galeries, and if the O ring leaked then= air leakage could be heard in the coolant system.  Is this a valad li= ne of thinking?

Bob Perkinson
 
-------------- Original message from "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures@cox.net&g= t;: --------------

Chris;

 

For every = challenge we overcome, we get to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you=E2=80=99re having lots of satisfaction opportunities!

 

All other = things being normal, my experience would suggest that getting to 210 or 220 should not be a problem.  Dur= ing initial testing, I had run my 20B temps to those levels a number of times. = No issue.

My concern= would be whether or not the air was purged =E2=80=93 or that the temp read out was not correct.  <= /span>

 

My cooling= system bleeds out well, but it does take at least one run up to temp, and then some added coolant. = ; On one occasion I had pumped air into the system to pressurize for leak test, = and then forgot to purge that out before making some =E2=80=98tuning=E2=80=99 r= uns on the ground.  Before the temp read over 200, I heard the thumping sound= of boiling. Yikes!  Apparently air at the temp pickup. Even that did not result in= any coolant leaks in the housings.

 

I recalibr= ated the temp channel on the EM2, had to change from the default numbers to get a correct reading. = If you haven=E2=80=99t already checked calibration, it may be worth it. The th= ermister is non-linear, so calibrate to a low end temp of about 130, and high end at= 210 =E2=80=93 or whatever your local boiling point is. Using a measured temp wa= ter container is most accurate.  I then checked my temp gun (pyrometer) on= a spot of flat black paint at the pump outlet to double check.<= /p>

 

Hang in th= ere, buddy!

 

Al G

 

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: Rotary motors in air= craft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Sunday, January 25, = 2009 10:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fryin= g pan into the fire....Arrgh

 

Perhaps one = day I will post with good news.  However, today is not the day. I have really been having s= ome fun as I move my project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep mode".  The engine and wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure.  (BTW,= I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that later).=

 

Since I have=  seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the alternators charging and lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook up= my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was also gonna ta= ke out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now while I t= ied up loose ends). 

 

Since I was = about to send my computers in and would not be able to run the engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar and crank her up.  She star= ted up as expected.  I taxied around a bit making my "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart".  I shut down after a few minutes as the temps started to rise.

 

I let the bi= rd sit for a bit and wanted to restart it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let is s= it a bit more.  Try again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the last couple of times I ran the engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this engine i= t was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the rot= or housings. 

 

I took a big= breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip.  Damn.  Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (no offense Chrissi...I a= m a man<g>) and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure enough = I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of liquid.  I h= and turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it!  Coolant in the housing.  Checked the front rotor and sa= me thing, but less liquid. Damn.

 

Ok, when thi= s happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve.  I = ran it hot without a prop, too hot with a prop and without proper sensors.  I really should have been surprised if I didn't fry it. = ; So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, end and center plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine.  I TOOK EXT= REME care as to not to ever let it get too hot.  I would shut it down if it= got between 210 and 220.  ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees before I sh= ut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of seconds.  None the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings ag= ain.  I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated website).  It is my understanding if that if the engine gets too hot t= hese "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through.  Oh, I sooooooo hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared.  All the hardware is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium stre= et port...I really was developing some power.....

 

I spoke with= my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major fact= or as well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna lo= ok into what I missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly, chec= k the cooling system for proper flow again among other things.  Very frustrating though.  I am, however, getting very good at removing= my engine from the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work table in = only about an hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I can g= et Blaine over for some joint brain duty.  On a positive note, there are = a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this is giving me the perfect opportunity to do so.  They will be much easi= er to improve with the engine off.

 

Now to resig= n myself to yet another engine build as we determine the why.

 

And, as to a= nother "why".  I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in my fuel strakes.  As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months ag= o due to the Jeffco peeling away.  Well, as I was poking around the hang= ar looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles.  Hmmmm, t= he Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700.  Now, I rememb= er that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700.  I remember specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong stuf= f and I returned it for the 9700.  THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, but c= hoose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the = new order  BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700.  My cur= rent thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was the correct one to use = with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number.  It wa= s not until the new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the hardene= r and resin are both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few years a= go that I would have ever discovered a problem. 

 

I intend to = send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if they can verify this conclusion.

 

As always y'= all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished.  Please though, no gee Chris, you sure seem to be having a l= ot of problems.  Yes and No...I just like to share more <g>.  = In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, this is = the time to break things.  Much easier to deal with now in my own hangar a= nd not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my wallet is screaming.

 

So, the fun = starts when???????? :-)

 

All the best= ,

 

Chris Barber=

Houston

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