X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.232] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3453626 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:42:10 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.232; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so6855699rvb.7 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:41:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=BpN0GSlrP4hNftaNvTVfQFpw4hPgaehMiCr2pNquHAU=; b=gq3sjZasLw4Aa0bryWTsKU6AfANy4CwptbFiV+E15SBHKAmzXRAQYga3/Ssji4ZUnG bBvL2YNGbfUAINBDPrD+OMXpk3iy0uS2Nv9Gt/WcbwH6ZJVagJOmYmIcaxerUKv1XYtg QBNG6BkTooNd6/QSTCOwMi24fH42lC7Pk/2xs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=G2YxHxpvjqjCo+B0vlSntigEZr7S7m1by7y4hoG9W6lsGKkQG7UzpXCYNBDiKqguRv FrW26jyBmPFkHxJs0piiwnHp3z+Ff3/Ts1GMEFN6xJpDT2QiFQbdgYvedRhH1XFVzFOF d5b/EGnvjIRTfIeW/HzEfAVkKPRPxX7wDds+E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.99.1 with SMTP id b1mr583970rvm.132.1233002491773; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:41:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:41:31 -0600 Message-ID: <5cf132c0901261241q2bf32874v80ccdf4976fb664a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1b69887843a046168c372 --000e0cd1b69887843a046168c372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, I would like to agree with you that the temps Chris reported are not very likely to have harmed the o-rings, but if that is the case, why would he be getting coolant into both chambers? What else could cause that to happen simultaneously? My guess is that the o-rings got too hot and are now leaking. Mark S. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Al Gietzen wrote: > Chris; > > > > For every challenge we overcome, we get to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, > you're having lots of satisfaction opportunities! > > > > All other things being normal, my experience would suggest that getting t= o > 210 or 220 should not be a problem. During initial testing, I had run my > 20B temps to those levels a number of times. No issue. > > My concern would be whether or not the air was purged =96 or that the tem= p > read out was not correct. > > > > My cooling system bleeds out well, but it does take at least one run up t= o > temp, and then some added coolant. On one occasion I had pumped air into > the system to pressurize for leak test, and then forgot to purge that out > before making some 'tuning' runs on the ground. Before the temp read ove= r > 200, I heard the thumping sound of boiling. Yikes! Apparently air at the > temp pickup. Even that did not result in any coolant leaks in the housing= s. > > > > I recalibrated the temp channel on the EM2, had to change from the defaul= t > numbers to get a correct reading. If you haven't already checked > calibration, it may be worth it. The thermister is non-linear, so calibra= te > to a low end temp of about 130, and high end at 210 =96 or whatever your = local > boiling point is. Using a measured temp water container is most accurate.= I > then checked my temp gun (pyrometer) on a spot of flat black paint at the > pump outlet to double check. > > > > Hang in there, buddy! > > > > Al G > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Christopher Barber > *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:41 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh > > > > Perhaps one day I will post with good news. However, today is not the da= y. > I have really been having some fun as I move my project from "proof of > concept mode" to "flight prep mode". The engine and wires have been my > focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeff= co > failure. (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco > failure...more on that later). > > > > Since I have seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the > engine running, the alternators charging and lights working properly, I w= as > gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio > panel today. I was also gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy t= o > check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I > would send it all in now while I tied up loose ends). > > > > Since I was about to send my computers in and would not be able to run th= e > engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar = and > crank her up. She started up as expected. I taxied around a bit making = my > "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart". I shut down after a few > minutes as the temps started to rise. > > > > I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart it. Hmmm, not > starting. Hmmmm. Let is sit a bit more. Try again. Still no joy. I sa= t > there for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a secon= d > time the last couple of times I ran the engine. UHOH! When I had to bui= ld > this engine it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after = an > initial run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into th= e > rotor housings. > > > > I took a big breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of > dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. Damn. Ok, take a deeper breath and be = a > man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man) and go remove a sparkplug and ta= ke > a look. Sure enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a > bit of liquid. I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hol= e. > Damn-it, damn-it damn-it! Coolant in the housing. Checked the front rot= or > and same thing, but less liquid. Damn. > > > > Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I wa= s > in a serious learning curve. I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with a > prop and without proper sensors. I really should have been surprised if = I > didn't fry it. So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housin= gs, > end and center plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine.= I > TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too hot. I would shut it > down if it got between 210 and 220. ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees > before I shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of seconds= . > None the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor > housings again. I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings > purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine > illustrated website). It is my understanding if that if the engine gets = too > hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through. Oh, I sooooooo ho= pe > it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared. All the hardware i= s > new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I > really was developing some power..... > > > > I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation > business with R&D as a major factor as well as building a Soob/Eggenfield= er > RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I missed. Verify that my sens= ors > are working properly, check the cooling system for proper flow again amon= g > other things. Very frustrating though. I am, however, getting very good= at > removing my engine from the plane. I had it off and sitting on the work > table in only about an hour. I am not gonna crack the engine open yet un= til > I can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty. On a positive note, the= re > are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this= is > giving me the perfect opportunity to do so. They will be much easier to > improve with the engine off. > > > > Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as we determine the why. > > > > And, as to another "why". I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in = my > fuel strakes. As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old > epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months = ago > due to the Jeffco peeling away. Well, as I was poking around the hangar > looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it easy > later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles. Hmmmm, the > Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700. Now, I remember > that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700. I remember specifica= lly > as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong stuff and I returne= d > it for the 9700. THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, but choose not to use i= t > and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the new order B= OTH > the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700. My current thought is that= I > used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chr= is > for assuming) that it was the correct one to use with the 9700 > Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number. It was not until = the > new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the hardener and resin = are > both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few years ago that I wo= uld > have ever discovered a problem. > > > > I intend to send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if the= y > can verify this conclusion. > > > > As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning > remarks are anticipated and relished. Please though, no gee Chris, you s= ure > seem to be having a lot of problems. Yes and No...I just like to share m= ore > . In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Hec= k, > this is the time to break things. Much easier to deal with now in my own > hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if= my > wallet is screaming. > > > > So, the fun starts when???????? :-) > > > > All the best, > > > > Chris Barber > > Houston > --000e0cd1b69887843a046168c372 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
I would like to agree with you that the temps Chris reported are not v= ery likely to have harmed the o-rings, but if that is the case, why would h= e be getting coolant into both chambers?  What else could cause t= hat to happen simultaneously?  My guess is that the o-rings got too ho= t and are now leaking.  
 
Mark S.  

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net<= /a>> wrote:

Chris;

 

For every challenge we overcome= , we get to enjoy the satisfaction. Man, you're having lots of satisfaction= opportunities!

 

All other things being normal, = my experience would suggest that getting to 210 or 220 should not be a prob= lem.  During initial testing, I had run my 20B temps to those levels a= number of times. No issue.

My concern would be whether or = not the air was purged =96 or that the temp read out was not correct. =

 

My cooling system bleeds out we= ll, but it does take at least one run up to temp, and then some added coola= nt.  On one occasion I had pumped air into the system to pressurize fo= r leak test, and then forgot to purge that out before making some 'tuning' = runs on the ground.  Before the temp read over 200, I heard the thumpi= ng sound of boiling. Yikes!  Apparently air at the temp pickup. Even t= hat did not result in any coolant leaks in the housings.

 

I recalibrated the temp channel= on the EM2, had to change from the default numbers to get a correct readin= g.  If you haven't already checked calibration, it may be worth it. Th= e thermister is non-linear, so calibrate to a low end temp of about 130, an= d high end at 210 =96 or whatever your local boiling point is. Using a meas= ured temp water container is most accurate.  I then checked my temp gu= n (pyrometer) on a spot of flat black paint at the pump outlet to double ch= eck.

 

Hang in there, buddy!

 

Al G

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircra= ft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2= 009 10:41 PM
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft
Subject:<= /b> [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

Perhaps one day I will post with g= ood news.  However, today is not the day. I have really been having so= me fun as I move my project from "proof of concept mode" to "= ;flight prep mode".  The engine and wires have been my focus sinc= e I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure.&= nbsp; (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more o= n that later).

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

Since I have seemingly gotten= most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the alternator= s charging and lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook = up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was als= o gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time= (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now = while I tied up loose ends). 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

Since I was about to send my compu= ters in and would not be able to run the engine for a while I couldn't = resist pushing the plane out of the hangar and crank her up.  She star= ted up as expected.  I taxied around a bit making my "airplane&qu= ot; into a loud and expensive "go-kart".  I shut down after = a few minutes as the temps started to rise.

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

I let the bird sit for a bit and w= anted to restart it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let is si= t a bit more.  Try again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute= and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the last coup= le of times I ran the engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this en= gine it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initia= l run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the r= otor housings. 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

I took a big breath and went back = to the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. = ; Damn.  Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (no offense Chrissi...I= am a man<g>) and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure e= nough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of liquid.&n= bsp; I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, d= amn-it damn-it!  Coolant in the housing.  Checked the front rotor= and same thing, but less liquid. Damn.

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

Ok, when this happened to my rebui= lt first engine I blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve. = I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with a prop and without proper s= ensors.  I really should have been surprised if I didn't fry it.&n= bsp; So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, end and c= enter plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine.  I TO= OK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too hot.  I would shut it= down if it got between 210 and 220.  ONE TIME it got to about 225 deg= rees before I shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of seco= nds.  None the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter t= he rotor housings again.  I used what were advertised as "beefed = up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to= their rotaryengine illustrated website).  It is my understanding if t= hat if the engine gets too hot these "O" rings fail and let coola= nt seep through.  Oh, I sooooooo hope it is just the "O" rin= gs and the hardware was spared.  All the hardware is new and professio= nally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I really was developing= some power.....

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

I spoke with my engineer friend, B= laine, who owns a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major facto= r as well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna = look into what I missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly,= check the cooling system for proper flow again among other things.  V= ery frustrating though.  I am, however, getting very good at remo= ving my engine from the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work t= able in only about an hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet = until I can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty.  On a positive = note, there are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I n= eed to address, this is giving me the perfect opportunity to do so.  T= hey will be much easier to improve with the engine off.

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

Now to resign myself to yet anothe= r engine build as we determine the why.

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

And, as to another "why"= .  I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in my fuel strakes. = ; As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from = my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months ago due to the Jeffc= o peeling away.  Well, as I was poking around the hangar looking for s= omething I had placed as to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right,= I came across my old Jeffco bottles.  Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled = 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700.  Now, I remember that when I order= ed it a few years ago it was 9700.  I remember specifically as when I = first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong stuff and I returned it for= the 9700.  THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, but choose not to use it a= nd just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the new order = BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700.  My current though= t is that I used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming = (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was the correct one to use with the = 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number.  It was no= t until the new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the hardener = and resin are both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few years a= go that I would have ever discovered a problem. 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

I intend to send a email to the co= mpany that bought Jeffco and see if they can verify this conclusion.=

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

As always y'all's insight,= commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and rel= ished.  Please though, no gee Chris, you sure seem to be having a lot = of problems.  Yes and No...I just like to share more <g>.  = In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, this = is the time to break things.  Much easier to deal with now in my own h= angar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my= wallet is screaming.

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

So, the fun starts when???????? :-= )

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

All the best,

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

Chris Barber

Houston


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