X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3452751 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:19:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090126131907.BTVN15744.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:19:07 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:19:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C97F8E.C6BA6E00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acl/gRb9Z11Sn2tpSRan6EnKX4qD/QANauFg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090126131907.BTVN15744.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C97F8E.C6BA6E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, you must be the token target for all the ill winds regarding = rotary in aircraft. =20 If you are using the TES Teflon Encased Silicon =93O=94 rings, I would = be surprised if they have failed under the circumstances you have = described. They can take a LOT of punishment. =20 In a =93freak=94 incident, I had the triangular part of an apex seal = drop down to the side of the rotor (fell into one of the lightening holes milled = in the rotor) and caused such heat from friction that it turned the iron housing metal blue for an area the size of a silver dollar or so. That = much heat did cause compromise of the O ring in that area but for only a very small segment (approx =BD -3/4=94 long) where the O ring had shriveled = into a thinner cross section. As Tracy, pointed out these =93O=94 rings can = be somewhat difficult =96 well, at least they take some care- in = positioning them in the grooves and then assembling the parts without them falling out of position. I use Halamar gasket sealer to hold mine in place. =20 For what it=92s worth, I have seen the situation where after a number of = days of very cold weather I would get a seep of coolant through the exhaust. = It was a small amount and after firing up the engine and running it the = leak would not re-appear. This was shortly after a rebuild so not certain whether the O rings had not yet seated in the grooves completely or what = =96 but, it did go away. =20 So unless you have warped or side housings damaged in the area of the groove, the only likely cause I can think of it the =93O=94 ring fell = out of position and got =93pinched=94. Since you indicated new housings that = are an unlikely source of the problem. However, if you do take it apart, check inside the =93O=94 ring grove with a metal dentist pick to see if it = catches on anything. If it does examine that area very carefully to make certain = there are no cracks. In some cases, cores apparently shift in casting and can lead to very thin areas around these grooves and they can be relatively = easy to damage if you for instance drop a side housing on that edge. =20 Good luck, hope you find you don=92t have to tear the engine down. = I=92ve be come rather good at it, but don=92t recommend it as a skill to acquire = {:>) =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:41 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh =20 Perhaps one day I will post with good news. However, today is not the = day. I have really been having some fun as I move my project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep mode". The engine and wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my = Jeffco failure. (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that later). =20 Since I have seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in = the engine running, the alternators charging and lights working properly, I = was gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio panel today. I was also gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy = to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I would send it all in now while I tied up loose ends).=20 =20 Since I was about to send my computers in and would not be able to run = the engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar = and crank her up. She started up as expected. I taxied around a bit making = my "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart". I shut down after a few minutes as the temps started to rise. =20 I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart it. Hmmm, not = starting. Hmmmm. Let is sit a bit more. Try again. Still no joy. I sat there = for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the = last couple of times I ran the engine. UHOH! When I had to build this = engine it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial = run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the rotor housings.=20 =20 I took a big breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. Damn. Ok, take a deeper breath and be = a man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man) and go remove a sparkplug and = take a look. Sure enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had = a bit of liquid. I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the = hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it! Coolant in the housing. Checked the front = rotor and same thing, but less liquid. Damn. =20 Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I = was in a serious learning curve. I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with = a prop and without proper sensors. I really should have been surprised if = I didn't fry it. So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new = housings, end and center plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new = engine. I TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too hot. I would shut it down if it got between 210 and 220. ONE TIME it got to about 225 = degrees before I shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of = seconds. None the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings again. I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated website). It is my understanding if that if the engine gets = too hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through. Oh, I sooooooo = hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared. All the hardware = is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I really was developing some power..... =20 I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation business with R&D as a major factor as well as building a = Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I missed. Verify that my = sensors are working properly, check the cooling system for proper flow again = among other things. Very frustrating though. I am, however, getting very = good at removing my engine from the plane. I had it off and sitting on the work table in only about an hour. I am not gonna crack the engine open yet = until I can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty. On a positive note, = there are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, = this is giving me the perfect opportunity to do so. They will be much easier to improve with the engine off. =20 Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as we determine the = why. =20 And, as to another "why". I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in = my fuel strakes. As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months = ago due to the Jeffco peeling away. Well, as I was poking around the hangar looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles. Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700. Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700. I remember = specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong stuff and I = returned it for the 9700. THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, but choose not to use = it and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the new order = BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700. My current thought is = that I used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad = Chris for assuming) that it was the correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number. It was not until = the new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the hardener and resin = are both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few years ago that I = would have ever discovered a problem. =20 =20 I intend to send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if = they can verify this conclusion. =20 As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished. Please though, no gee Chris, you = sure seem to be having a lot of problems. Yes and No...I just like to share = more . In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. = Heck, this is the time to break things. Much easier to deal with now in my = own hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even = if my wallet is screaming. =20 So, the fun starts when???????? :-) =20 All the best, =20 Chris Barber Houston __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C97F8E.C6BA6E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris, you must be the token target = for all the ill winds regarding rotary in = aircraft.

 

If you are using the TES Teflon = Encased Silicon “O” rings, I would be surprised if they have failed = under the circumstances you have described.=A0 They can take a LOT of punishment.

 

In a “freak” incident, = I had the triangular part of an apex seal drop down to the side of the rotor = (fell into one of the lightening holes milled in the rotor) and caused such = heat from friction that it turned the iron housing metal blue for an area the size = of a silver dollar or so.=A0 That much heat did cause compromise of the O = ring in that area but for only a very small segment (approx =BD -3/4” long) = where the O ring had shriveled into a thinner cross section.=A0=A0 As Tracy, pointed = out these “O” rings can be somewhat difficult – well, at least they take some = care- in positioning them in the grooves and then assembling the parts without = them falling out of position.=A0 I use Halamar gasket sealer to hold mine in = place.

 

For what it’s worth, I have = seen the situation where after a number of days of very cold weather I would get = a seep of coolant through the exhaust.=A0 It was a small amount and after = firing up the engine and running it the leak would not re-appear.=A0 This was shortly = after a rebuild so not certain whether the O rings had not yet seated in the = grooves completely or what – but, it did go = away.

 

So unless you have warped or side = housings damaged in the area of the groove, the only likely cause I can think of = it the “O” ring fell out of position and got “pinched”.=A0 Since you = indicated new housings that are an unlikely source of the problem.=A0 However, if = you do take it apart, check inside the “O” ring grove with a metal = dentist pick to see if it catches on anything.=A0 If it does examine that area = very carefully to make certain there are no cracks.=A0 In some cases, cores = apparently shift in casting and can lead to very thin areas around these grooves = and they can be relatively easy to damage if you for instance drop a side housing = on that edge.

 

Good luck, hope you find you = don’t have to tear the engine down.=A0 I’ve be come rather good at it, = but don’t recommend it as a skill to acquire {:>)

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Monday, January 26, = 2009 1:41 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh

 

Perhaps one day I will post with good news.  = However, today is not the day. I have really been having some fun as I move my = project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep = mode".  The engine and wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the = strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco failure.  (BTW, I may have = discovered the reason for my Jeffco failure...more on that = later).

 

Since I have seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the alternators charging and = lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, = radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was also gonna take out my EC2 and = EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I = figured I would send it all in now while I tied up loose = ends). 

 

Since I was about to send my computers in and would = not be able to run the engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane = out of the hangar and crank her up.  She started up as expected.  I = taxied around a bit making my "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart".  I shut down after a few minutes as the temps = started to rise.

 

I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart = it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let is sit a bit more.  Try = again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second time the last couple of times I ran the engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this engine it was = premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an initial run. The first = engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the rotor = housings. 

 

I took a big breath and went back to the = exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip.  Damn.  Ok, take = a deeper breath and be a man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man<g>) = and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure enough I removed the = leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of liquid.  I hand turned the = prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it damn-it!  Coolant = in the housing.  Checked the front rotor and same thing, but less liquid. = Damn.

 

Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I = blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve.  I ran it hot without = a prop, too hot with a prop and without proper sensors.  I really = should have been surprised if I didn't fry it.  So, when it failed it gave me = an excuse to buy new housings, end and center plates etc and build what = was/is essentially a new engine.  I TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever = let it get too hot.  I would shut it down if it got between 210 and = 220.  ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees before I shut it down and that was = only for a matter of couple of seconds.  None the less something has = happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor housings again.  I used what = were advertised as "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple = racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine illustrated = website).  It is my understanding if that if the engine gets too hot these "O" = rings fail and let coolant seep through.  Oh, I sooooooo hope it is just = the "O" rings and the hardware was spared.  All the hardware = is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I = really was developing some power.....

 

I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a = couple of aviation business with R&D as a major factor as well as building = a Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly, check the = cooling system for proper flow again among other things.  Very frustrating though.  I am, however, getting very good at removing my = engine from the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work table in only = about an hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I can get = Blaine over = for some joint brain duty.  On a positive note, there are a number of things = at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this is giving me the = perfect opportunity to do so.  They will be much easier to improve with the = engine off.

 

Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as = we determine the why.

 

And, as to another "why".  I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in my fuel strakes.  As loyal fans = may remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and = redo them completely a couple of months ago due to the Jeffco peeling away.  = Well, as I was poking around the hangar looking for something I had placed as = to be able to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles.  Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is = labeled 9700.  Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it = was 9700.  I remember specifically as when I first ordered from = AS&S they sent the wrong stuff and I returned it for the 9700.  THIS time I = ordered new Jeffco, but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the new order  BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin = were labeled 9700.  My current thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it = was the correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the = proper number.  It was not until the new order arrived a few months ago = and I saw both the hardener and resin are both 9700 and finding the original = bottles from a few years ago that I would have ever discovered a problem.  =

 

I intend to send a email to the company that bought = Jeffco and see if they can verify this conclusion.

 

As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass = guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished.  Please though, no = gee Chris, you sure seem to be having a lot of problems.  Yes and = No...I just like to share more <g>.  In the tradition of John Slade, = share it all, it can only help. Heck, this is the time to break things.  = Much easier to deal with now in my own hangar and not on some deserted strip = or worse yet, in the air....even if my wallet is = screaming.

 

So, the fun starts when???????? = :-)

 

All the best,

 

Chris Barber

Houston



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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