X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f17.google.com ([209.85.221.17] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3452660 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:08:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.17; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so9077926qyk.19 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:08:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=VwI/5yQZzpnzEqsk3Frph4Pk3yqoy/1jd+kfcMEV3zU=; b=UhJYM3vOOXYNILxcNXOrsTuK8CChevhuKdT9y3LevxhGAJsvNVyBWv9Vdz1FgnpWqa DbTgka0qfuqEmGFCUDbqy9TrcpG3sxXfgn8jgey5lRg0tve9e6SoNiVFWvsWrh+KQXj7 hAdZ8bHwwXmfTo3an2xTEDNx+VXUCjSVlBuLk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=QPALR+p3VTjspNDup3vc604DQEDNn22kwfNUK7UWUbpqhRaQ0+QX6SBHQtnOGkBuDu PjgVBhR9BpW9pvlQ9j2b++4+5S8VI496g+WJ+wgCLL3KvESC1BVVW/RR9gSyuQz4Qvnf pRSIydXFAbbrOb+zPYyvWAd02T65yl8Btx16o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.215.15.15 with SMTP id s15mr36597qai.375.1232971686285; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:08:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:08:06 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0a21a872d4726eb5 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0901260408o4d18283av707da6810a563fb7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Frying pan into the fire....Arrgh From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb3ba611406046161970c --0015175cb3ba611406046161970c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We feel your pain Chris. Unless you had air trapped in the cooling system and it was not really circulating, high temperature was not the problem assuming that the highest temp you had was 225. I've run mine up to 235 degrees on the coolant temp during tests (and that's in-flight at high power settings) with no problem at all. It got up to 260 when I had that coolant cap malfunction over Texas. Again, no problem but only because I caught it quickly. Only time I've had a leak was when I let an O-ring jump out of the groove and get pinched between the housings (yes, it's happened to me). The TES rings are better at resisting heat but they ARE more difficult to assemble. Ed had over heat cause a coolant leak (see in archives for details) but that took heat high enough to turn the metal blue. All this is just for background. Let us know what it turns out to actually be. Tracy On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Christopher Barber < CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote: > Perhaps one day I will post with good news. However, today is not the > day. I have really been having some fun as I move my project from "proof of > concept mode" to "flight prep mode". The engine and wires have been my > focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity following my Jeffco > failure. (BTW, I may have discovered the reason for my Jeffco > failure...more on that later). > > Since I have seemingly gotten most my electrical gremlins tamed as in the > engine running, the alternators charging and lights working properly, I was > gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-100, radios, GPS's and audio > panel today. I was also gonna take out my EC2 and EM2 to send to Tracy to > check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped working so I figured I > would send it all in now while I tied up loose ends). > > Since I was about to send my computers in and would not be able to run the > engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the plane out of the hangar and > crank her up. She started up as expected. I taxied around a bit making my > "airplane" into a loud and expensive "go-kart". I shut down after a few > minutes as the temps started to rise. > > I let the bird sit for a bit and wanted to restart it. Hmmm, not > starting. Hmmmm. Let is sit a bit more. Try again. Still no joy. I sat > there for a minute and remembered it was a bit difficult to start a second > time the last couple of times I ran the engine. UHOH! When I had to build > this engine it was premised by the old engine not wanting to start after an > initial run. The first engine got too hot and was leaking coolant into the > rotor housings. > > I took a big breath and went back to the exhaust.....there was a bit of > dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. Damn. Ok, take a deeper breath and be a > man (no offense Chrissi...I am a man) and go remove a sparkplug and take > a look. Sure enough I removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a > bit of liquid. I hand turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. > Damn-it, damn-it damn-it! Coolant in the housing. Checked the front rotor > and same thing, but less liquid. Damn. > > Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt first engine I blamed myself as I was > in a serious learning curve. I ran it hot without a prop, too hot with a > prop and without proper sensors. I really should have been surprised if I > didn't fry it. So, when it failed it gave me an excuse to buy new housings, > end and center plates etc and build what was/is essentially a new engine. I > TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let it get too hot. I would shut it > down if it got between 210 and 220. ONE TIME it got to about 225 degrees > before I shut it down and that was only for a matter of couple of seconds. > None the less something has happened to cause coolant to enter the rotor > housings again. I used what were advertised as "beefed up" O rings > purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a thanks to their rotaryengine > illustrated website). It is my understanding if that if the engine gets too > hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep through. Oh, I sooooooo hope > it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was spared. All the hardware is > new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium street port...I > really was developing some power..... > > I spoke with my engineer friend, Blaine, who owns a couple of aviation > business with R&D as a major factor as well as building a Soob/Eggenfielder > RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I missed. Verify that my sensors > are working properly, check the cooling system for proper flow again among > other things. Very frustrating though. I am, however, getting very good at > removing my engine from the plane. I had it off and sitting on the work > table in only about an hour. I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until > I can get Blaine over for some joint brain duty. On a positive note, there > are a number of things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this is > giving me the perfect opportunity to do so. They will be much easier to > improve with the engine off. > > Now to resign myself to yet another engine build as we determine the why. > > And, as to another "why". I may have determined why my Jeffco failed in my > fuel strakes. As loyal fans may remember I had to remove all the old > epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo them completely a couple of months ago > due to the Jeffco peeling away. Well, as I was poking around the hangar > looking for something I had placed as to be able to find it easy > later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco bottles. Hmmmm, the > Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled 9700. Now, I remember > that when I ordered it a few years ago it was 9700. I remember specifically > as when I first ordered from AS&S they sent the wrong stuff and I returned > it for the 9700. THIS time I ordered new Jeffco, but choose not to use it > and just use straight EZpoxy for my strakes, however, in the new order BOTH > the Hardener AND the Resin were labeled 9700. My current thought is that I > used the Hardener that AS&S supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris > for assuming) that it was the correct one to use with the 9700 > Resin....which is what I knew to be the proper number. It was not until the > new order arrived a few months ago and I saw both the hardener and resin are > both 9700 and finding the original bottles from a few years ago that I would > have ever discovered a problem. > > I intend to send a email to the company that bought Jeffco and see if they > can verify this conclusion. > > As always y'all's insight, commentary, Wild ass guesses and demeaning > remarks are anticipated and relished. Please though, no gee Chris, you sure > seem to be having a lot of problems. Yes and No...I just like to share more > . In the tradition of John Slade, share it all, it can only help. Heck, > this is the time to break things. Much easier to deal with now in my own > hangar and not on some deserted strip or worse yet, in the air....even if my > wallet is screaming. > > So, the fun starts when???????? :-) > > All the best, > > Chris Barber > Houston > --0015175cb3ba611406046161970c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We feel your pain Chris.

Unless you had air trapped in the cooling s= ystem and it was not really circulating, high temperature was not the probl= em assuming that the highest temp you had was 225.  I've run mine = up to 235 degrees on the coolant temp during tests (and that's in-fligh= t at high power settings) with no problem at all.  It got up to 260 wh= en I had that coolant cap malfunction over Texas.  Again, no problem b= ut only because I caught it quickly.

Only time I've had a leak was when I let an O-ring jump out of the = groove and get pinched between the housings (yes, it's happened to me).=   The TES rings are better at resisting heat but they ARE more difficu= lt to assemble.

Ed had over heat cause a coolant leak (see in archives for details) but= that took heat high enough to turn the metal blue.

All this is just= for background.  Let us know what it turns out to actually be.  =

Tracy


 

On Mon, Jan 26, = 2009 at 1:40 AM, Christopher Barber <CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:=
Perhaps one day I will post with good = news. =20 However, today is not the day. I have really been having some fun as I move= my=20 project from "proof of concept mode" to "flight prep mode&qu= ot;.  The engine and=20 wires have been my focus since I had to rebuild the strakes in my Velocity= =20 following my Jeffco failure.  (BTW, I may have discovered the reason f= or my=20 Jeffco failure...more on that later).
 
Since I have seemingly gotten mos= t my=20 electrical gremlins tamed as in the engine running, the alternators chargin= g and=20 lights working properly, I was gonna start to actually hook up my Dynon D-1= 00,=20 radios, GPS's and audio panel today.  I was also gonna take out my= EC2 and=20 EM2 to send to Tracy to check out one last time (my EM2 backlight stopped= =20 working so I figured I would send it all in now while I tied up loose=20 ends). 
 
Since I was about to send my computers= in and would=20 not be able to run the engine for a while I couldn't resist pushing the= plane=20 out of the hangar and crank her up.  She started up as expected. = I=20 taxied around a bit making my "airplane" into a loud and expensiv= e=20 "go-kart".  I shut down after a few minutes as the temps sta= rted to=20 rise.
 
I let the bird sit for a bit and wante= d to restart=20 it.  Hmmm, not starting.  Hmmmm.  Let is sit a bit more.&nbs= p;=20 Try again. Still no joy.  I sat there for a minute and remembered it w= as a=20 bit difficult to start a second time the last couple of times I ran the=20 engine.  UHOH!  When I had to build this engine it was premised b= y the=20 old engine not wanting to start after an initial run. The first engine= got=20 too hot and was leaking coolant into the rotor housings. 
 
I took a big breath and went back to t= he=20 exhaust.....there was a bit of dirty liquid at the exhaust tip. =20 Damn.  Ok, take a deeper breath and be a man (no offense Chrissi...I a= m a=20 man<g>) and go remove a sparkplug and take a look.  Sure enough = I=20 removed the leading plug of rotor two and it had a bit of liquid.  I h= and=20 turned the prop and steamy liquid blew out the hole. Damn-it, damn-it=20 damn-it!  Coolant in the housing.  Checked the front rotor and sa= me=20 thing, but less liquid. Damn.
 
Ok, when this happened to my rebuilt f= irst engine I=20 blamed myself as I was in a serious learning curve.  I ran it hot with= out a=20 prop, too hot with a prop and without proper sensors.  I really s= hould=20 have been surprised if I didn't fry it.  So, when it failed it gav= e me an=20 excuse to buy new housings, end and center plates etc and build what was/is= =20 essentially a new engine.  I TOOK EXTREME care as to not to ever let i= t get=20 too hot.  I would shut it down if it got between 210 and 220.  ON= E=20 TIME it got to about 225 degrees before I shut it down and that was only fo= r a=20 matter of couple of seconds.  None the less something has happened to = cause=20 coolant to enter the rotor housings again.  I used what were advertise= d as=20 "beefed up" O rings purchased from Pineapple racing (kinda as a&n= bsp;thanks to=20 their rotaryengine illustrated website).  It is my understanding if th= at if=20 the engine gets too hot these "O" rings fail and let coolant seep= through. =20 Oh, I sooooooo hope it is just the "O" rings and the hardware was= spared. =20 All the hardware is new and professionally ported by Mazdatrix to a medium= =20 street port...I really was developing some power.....
 
I spoke with my engineer friend, Blain= e, who owns a=20 couple of aviation business with R&D as a major factor as well as build= ing a=20 Soob/Eggenfielder RV-7 and he and I are gonna look into what I=20 missed.  Verify that my sensors are working properly, check the coolin= g=20 system for proper flow again among other things.  Very frustrating=20 though.  I am, however, getting very good at removing my engine f= rom=20 the plane.  I had it off and sitting on the work table in only about a= n=20 hour.  I am not gonna crack the engine open yet until I can get Blaine= over=20 for some joint brain duty.  On a positive note, there are a number of= =20 things at the "firewall aft" that I need to address, this is givi= ng me the=20 perfect opportunity to do so.  They will be much easier to improve wit= h the=20 engine off.
 
Now to resign myself to yet another en= gine build as=20 we determine the why.
 
And, as to another "why".&nb= sp; I may have=20 determined why my Jeffco failed in my fuel strakes.  As loyal fans may= =20 remember I had to remove all the old epoxy/Jeffco from my strakes and redo = them=20 completely a couple of months ago due to the Jeffco peeling away.  Wel= l, as=20 I was poking around the hangar looking for something I had placed as to be = able=20 to find it easy later......yeah, right, I came across my old Jeffco=20 bottles.  Hmmmm, the Hardener is labeled 3191 and the Resin is labeled= =20 9700.  Now, I remember that when I ordered it a few years ago it was= =20 9700.  I remember specifically as when I first ordered from AS&S t= hey=20 sent the wrong stuff and I returned it for the 9700.  THIS time I orde= red=20 new Jeffco, but choose not to use it and just use straight EZpoxy for my=20 strakes, however, in the new order  BOTH the Hardener AND the Resin we= re=20 labeled 9700.  My current thought is that I used the Hardener that AS&= amp;S=20 supplied with the kit assuming (yeah, bad Chris for assuming) that it was t= he=20 correct one to use with the 9700 Resin....which is what I knew to be the pr= oper=20 number.  It was not until the new order arrived a few months ago and I= saw=20 both the hardener and resin are both 9700 and finding the original bottles = from=20 a few years ago that I would have ever discovered a problem.  <= /div>
 
I intend to send a email to the compan= y that bought=20 Jeffco and see if they can verify this conclusion.
 
As always y'all's insight, com= mentary, Wild ass=20 guesses and demeaning remarks are anticipated and relished.  Please th= ough,=20 no gee Chris, you sure seem to be having a lot of problems.  Yes and N= o...I=20 just like to share more <g>.  In the tradition of John Slade, sh= are=20 it all, it can only help. Heck, this is the time to break things.  Muc= h=20 easier to deal with now in my own hangar and not on some deserted strip or = worse=20 yet, in the air....even if my wallet is screaming.
 
So, the fun starts when???????? :-)
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston

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