X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3450764 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:40:32 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.96; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52]) by QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7Rj41b00617UAYkA9XfwUb; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:39:56 +0000 Received: from osd1 ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7Xfv1b00K0dkeQQ8ZXfvuc; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:39:56 +0000 Message-ID: <00A621FCE2784C75B323D6D7797018BA@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:42:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Hey Paul; Appreciate the info. The FIRST consideration was the redrive, and after a lot of conversations with Tracy, Craig Catto, and Bob Wirth, we came to the conclusion that 450+ hp at take-off was o.k., then pull it back to 55-75% for cruise. That plywood firewall is a little undersized, and we have been fitting as we go along. But at this point, a couple more bubbles one way or the other, oh well. Guaranteed, it ain't going to look like a stock Legacy......(:-) Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in progress ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 11:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers > greg > i do not know what you want but here goes. > the idea with the engine was to have the most hp with the least amount of > boost so the the turbo would not work very much so it will last longer. i > feel it will fail first in the system. the engine is street ported and the > turbo is a to4 (.96 cold side) with 3 lb. spring so the engine should > turbo normalize at 300-330 hp. i have a bypass regulator so i can adjust > boost pressure up to higher levels. if i get this checked out i'm going to > add a pop off at 8-10 lbs so i can't over boost the system. > i don't know if you have thought but the limiting factor is the gearbox. > tracy says 300 hp continuous. these numbers are Conservative. but i feel > we are in territory that has not been tested very much. > beautiful work on your engine. i have one question. are you sure your > intake is low enough to clear the cowlng. i had to redo the intake 3 times > to get it low enough to clear my cowling. beautiful work! > > paul brannon N117ES > > > > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Greg Ward wrote: > >> From: Greg Ward >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B numbers >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 8:35 PM >> Hi Paul; >> I would be real interested in what you've been doing, >> as it sounds close to >> what we are trying to accomplish. Any info would be >> appreciated, and as we >> finally get on the dyno, we will do the same. >> Greg Ward >> Lancair 20B in progress >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ed Anderson" >> >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> >> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:43 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / 20B >> numbers >> >> >> > Hi Paul, >> > >> > Good to hear from you. Thanks for the real figures on >> your turbo 3 rotor, >> > couldn't remember them offhand. >> > >> > I hope the "may fly yet" means it stays in >> the family? Or do you simply >> > have a good home for it? >> > >> > Ed >> > >> > Ed Anderson >> > >> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> > >> > Matthews, NC >> > >> > eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> > >> > http://www.andersonee.com >> > >> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> > >> > http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > >> > >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >> > Behalf Of fpbjr2001@yahoo.com >> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:31 PM >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / >> 20B numbers >> > >> > ed >> > dyno reading of 580hp with 10 lbs boost and 386 ft/lb >> torque at 5500 rpm. >> > not sold yet. and may fly yet. >> > paul brannon N117ES >> > >> > >> > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Ed Anderson >> wrote: >> > >> >> From: Ed Anderson >> >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ >> Run / 20B numbers >> >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> >> >> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 3:10 PM >> >> Should be a fire belching dragon of an engine at >> over 15psi, >> >> Greg. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 15 Psi boost would be roughly 60" Hg of >> boost which >> >> at an A/F ratio of 12 >> >> (assume you would run it a bit rich at those boost >> levels) >> >> would give at >> >> 6000 rpm approx 550 HP burning 51 gph (more power >> at high >> >> rpm and boost >> >> naturally) and producing a total of 25000 >> BTU/Min of heat >> >> to be dumped >> >> through the radiator and oil cooler. Boy, you >> will produce >> >> more heat energy >> >> that gets dumped through your oil cooler (8484 >> BTU/Min) >> >> than my total >> >> (coolant and oil heat) entire engine puts out. >> Hope you >> >> have big radiators >> >> and oil cooler {:>). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A couple of guys in South Carolina had a turbo 3 >> rotor that >> >> they stated >> >> produced over 500 HP on the dyno. It flew, but >> >> unfortunately only one >> >> flight, before one of the partners decided they >> were not >> >> true experimenters >> >> and they decided to sell the project. It was >> really a nice >> >> looking set up >> >> on a Lancair ES. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >> >> Behalf Of Greg Ward >> >> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:53 AM >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: HP was : Mark's BBQ >> Run / 20B >> >> numbers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hey Ed; >> >> >> >> We are running a 4088 Garrett hair dryer, starting >> at about >> >> 15# of boost, >> >> and are extensively flow testing both the exhaust >> and >> >> induction for best >> >> efficiency/output. That's why the pictures, >> show >> >> everything a little bit >> >> different from what everyone else has done. >> Trying for >> >> optimum runner >> >> length, as little back pressure as possible, early >> heat >> >> removal, etc. >> >> Haven't got any real numbers down yet, until >> we >> >> (finally) get on the dyno >> >> but based on what a stock 360hp Cosmo gets for >> mileage, and >> >> going from >> >> there, we are convinced that fuel flows should be >> pretty >> >> good. That's why >> >> they call it "experimental".....(:-) >> >> >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> From: Ed >> Anderson >> >> >> >> >> >> To: Rotary >> >> >> motors in aircraft >> >> >> >> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:42 AM >> >> >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] HP was : Mark's BBQ Run / >> 20B >> >> numbers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Greg, well, if the fuel burn figure reported >> was correct >> >> - then the HP >> >> figures I calculated are in the ball park. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know the 3 rotor is capable of producing >> considerably >> >> more power at sea >> >> level (per Al's dyno run with his 3 rotor) >> with the >> >> higher air density. >> >> However, at altitude the upper limit would >> naturally be >> >> less due to the less >> >> dense air to support combustion, unless you are >> running >> >> some sort of forced >> >> induction as in a turbo, supercharger or perhaps >> nitrous >> >> oxide chemical >> >> enhancement. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But if the fuel burn was 15 gph, then it does not >> matter >> >> whether it was a 2 >> >> rotor, 3 rotor or 1 rotor (a 1 rotor would really >> have to >> >> be screaming to >> >> burn at that rate {:>)), the approx HP >> equation is: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> HP = (Gallon/Hour) *( 6 lb gasoline/gallon ) /BSFC >> = >> >> 15*6/0.55 = 90/0.55 = >> >> 163 HP. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now if you choose a different BSFC such as 0.49 >> then you >> >> get a better >> >> conversion. But, I tend to be conservative in my >> >> estimates. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >> >> Behalf Of Greg Ward >> >> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:20 AM >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B >> numbers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Agree to that. Our projections on the turbo 20B >> are much >> >> higher than that. >> >> >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> From: Al Gietzen >> >> >> >> To: Rotary >> >> >> motors in aircraft >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:13 PM >> >> >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B >> numbers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Seems like your numbers are about 100 hp - or >> maybe one >> >> rotor - too low. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Al G >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >> >> Behalf Of Ed Anderson >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:34 PM >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mark's BBQ Run / 20B >> numbers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Doug, at 15 gph at 6000 rpm, Mark would be making >> approx >> >> 165 HP, perhaps a >> >> bit more, using a very conservative BSFC of 0.55. >> If you >> >> assume a bit >> >> better BSFC of 0.49 it would be around 183 HP. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >> >> Behalf Of DLOMHEIM@aol.com >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:38 PM >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Mark's BBQ Run / 20B >> numbers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Great story...thanks for posting it! At 6,000 rpm >> and 15 >> >> gph, how many HP >> >> do you think you're developing? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Also, have you by chance flown side by side with >> another >> >> Lycoming powered ES >> >> for comparison purposes? If so what did you >> learn? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We're going to have a couple of "burger >> >> burns" at our airport ((2OK2) just >> >> east of Tinker AFB) this Spring / Summer, so maybe >> >> you'll feel like going on >> >> a short cross country up this way and show our >> little EAA >> >> chapter what a >> >> three rotor looks and sounds like?! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Blue Skies >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> RV-9A, 13B >> >> >> >> Organizing the hanger for Spring FWF and canopy >> work! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> >> >> >> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=Dec >> >> emailfooterNO62> yours in just 2 easy steps! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, >> version >> >> of virus signature >> >> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, >> version >> >> of virus signature >> >> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, >> version >> >> of virus signature >> >> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> >> >> http://www.eset.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> > >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > >> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, >> version of virus >> > signature >> > database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> > >> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> > >> > http://www.eset.com >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> > >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >