X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3038093 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:47 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080723041704.IXMR6526.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:04 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id tGH11Z00M1CvZmk03GH3iU; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:03 -0400 Message-ID: <007501c8ec7a$f5dbd810$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progress Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:17:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01C8EC40.4937E0C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C8EC40.4937E0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah Dave, I plan to order one of Ed's gauges soon! I didnt forget. Just = been tied up with other stuff and not much time for the plane lately. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development progress Mike, I second what Ed said. I knonw your panel space is a little tight, but remember that my = biggest suggestion was to get Ed's EFI monitor. It has helped me far = more than any other single thing I have done. Not just for the mixture = map but lately I have been working on injector balance and it is very = helpful there as well because you can also see exactly the injector = balance both front/rear and side to side. The fuel flow/totalizer is a really nice feature as well, but it was = worth it to me just to get the EC2 monitoring functions. Dave Leonard On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Mike,=20 Don't know whether this may apply or not. But, for a number of = years, I always had a stumble when the injector staged (went from 2 to = 4). It would not stop the engine and you never noticed it in flight, = but anytime you push the throttle past the staging point on the ground, = it would basically sag and the Air/Fuel ratio indicator would run off = the lean end of the scale. So I suspected it was a moment of too much = air and too little fuel . But, in any case even though I did try = enriching that region it never seemed to make much difference. Once I completed my EFISM gadget so I could visually see the fuel = map and where my engine was operating on it, it was very easy to see = that the fuel map dropped off from the higher values needed for idle to = lower values. So now that I could see exactly which bars were causing = the Air/Fuel ratio indictor go lean, I could start increasing those = specific fuel Map bars. It took quite a bit of increase across a region = of about 3-4 bars (manifold pressure bins) but I finally got it to the = point there was absolutely no hint of a stumble or sag as the engine = staged. So at least in my case, it was a case of the engine just being too = lean in that region. I hypothesize that when for an instance when the = EC2 cuts from the two primary injectors pumping all the fuel into the = primary runners (and at this point with NO fuel in the secondary = runners), that the mixture is initially just a bit too lean and it = takes an instant of time for things to get things squared away air/fuel = ratio wise. But, just a guess on my part. In any case, if you have Tracy's EM2 you can monitor those bars and = see what they tell you. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress Tracy, Thanks for the input. I still havent had a chance to get back to = any serious engine tweaking yet. I too assumed a big step somewhere in = the bottom of the MAP table. You updated my EC2 in January so I assume it is current or at least = pretty close. I redid the programming after i got it back from you, = following the instructions in the updated manual. At this point I'm hesitant to restore defaults because i feel like = it is pretty close. But if I cant get it figured out that is what I'll = do. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress A big step in the MAP table is almost always the problem here. = Specifically, it sounds like the low end of the table (low MP) is too = lean. This would be the point where the MP is at its lowest point = which is usually around 2000 - 2300 rpm (with prop on). =20 Don't know what version software you are running Mike but during = the past couple of years the software has had MANY changes aimed at = making the MAP table programming less critical and easier. If you have = recent software, the best thing to do is go back to default MAP then = program Mode 3 and 2 (in that order) per the instructions before doing = ant MAP table programming. After doing this. very little table = programming is usually needed. Note that Mode 2 is no longer the = program address range, it is now the injection dynamic range. It acts = like the low speed / idle jet adjustment in 'carburetor language'. Mode = 3 is the 'high speed jet' adjustment. You might also try loading the alternate default MAP by resetting = default MAP with the cold start switch UP instead of down. Remember to = reset the CS down after doing this. Tracy =20 On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Mike Wills = wrote: I too still have intermittent surging issues that havent been = fully conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 = RPM range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off the throttle. = In my case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges rhythmically at = about a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, MAP varying from = high to low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its moving around too = much), and the A/F bouncing back and forth from the rich stop to the = lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a little = disconcerting (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm taxiing = away from the crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is = watching). For a while I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing = line (Dave Leonard's suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll = need to get this figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if = it happens on short final. I occasionally have a pretty good backfire at the secondary = staging point. The operational solution seems to be to not linger in the = area - just advance the throttle or retard it right on through and it = seems to be OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost guarantees a = big pop! I'm told it's particularly impressive after dark! I havent worked on the tuning in months while I've been tweaking = other little issues in prep for my DAR inspection. Just about ready to = get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less figured out = eventually. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking = basics and development progress Chris,=20 As you've probably read from the archives surging is usually = caused by an overly lean air-fuel ratio. What is your A/F reading = during the surging? =20 Mark S. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Well, to continue the saga, I have not run the new 13b much = since I got it running a few weeks ago due to the EM2 not showing oil = pressure as it should. It was giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 = etc. I hand propped the engine before I ran it and oil pumped through = the system fine....much onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for = certainty ;-). Also, during my short runs everything heated up in the = oil system evenly and the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with = coolant temp. BUT, since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue = or an actual oil system problem I was very cautious about my few short = engine runs. Well, today while dreading the idea of dropping my pan, I = happened across an extra oil pressure sender (still in the package) I = happened to have. I had seen it laying around for a while, but didn't = give it much thought until I was thinking about dropping the pan. Low = and behold, The problem was the sender. I am getting good pressure = reading now, along with coolant and oil temp. Yeah. I am surprised at = the temps as they seem to be staying in check considering the 95 + = degree Houston weather. I am able to start the engine, shut it down and restart it = (something I was not able to do with the old engine). It is somewhat = difficult, but seems to be getting easier as I continue to tweak things = (ie timing). I am trying to do the various tuning via Tracy's manual. = To be honest a lot of the information in the manual is seemingly = abstract until I actually get to the step and/or problem. So, tonight, = I got it to run, and it seems to run better, but...... I am having a surging problem. It seems intermittent, but it = just may be I have not been setting the throttle quite the same way as I = get use to it all. Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several = times now....it seems as if this is when the engine is near or at idle. = I have not had a chance to look into this as of yet. Also, I have = gotten a number of horrendously loud/powerful backfires. Not sure what = changes as the engine may have run fine. It backfires when attempting = to start. I wait a few minutes and it may then start. Gee, isn't = inconsistent crap fun I just did a search of the archives on the surging issue, but = have just started reading the 105 post on the topic. Seems our own Mr. = Slade had the same problem back in the day . Well, it is the middle of my work week and I gotta turn in soon, = but I wanted to share that it seems as if actual progress is being made = (hmmmm, wonder what will screw this positive statement up) as the = Saga continues. All the best, Chris __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C8EC40.4937E0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yeah Dave, I plan to order one of Ed's = gauges soon!=20 I didnt forget. Just been tied up with other stuff and not much time for = the=20 plane lately.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 = 7:12=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

Mike,
 
I second what Ed said.
 
I knonw your panel space is a little tight, but remember that my = biggest=20 suggestion was to get Ed's EFI monitor.  It has helped me far = more than=20 any other single thing I have done.  Not just for the = mixture map=20 but lately I have been working on injector balance and it is very = helpful=20 there as well because you can also see exactly the injector balance = both=20 front/rear and side to side.
 
The fuel flow/totalizer is a really nice feature as well, but it = was=20 worth it to me just to get the EC2 monitoring functions.
 
Dave Leonard

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

Mike,=20

 

Don't = know whether=20 this may apply or not.  But, for a number of years, I always = had a=20 stumble when the injector staged (went from 2 to 4).  It would = not stop=20 the engine and you never noticed it in flight, but anytime you push = the=20 throttle past the staging point on the ground,  it would = basically sag=20 and the Air/Fuel ratio indicator would run off the lean end of the=20 scale.  So I suspected it was a moment of too much air and too = little=20 fuel .  But, in any case even though I did  try enriching = that=20 region it never seemed to make much difference.

 

Once I = completed my=20 EFISM gadget so I could visually see the fuel map and where my = engine was=20 operating on it, it was very easy to see that the fuel map dropped = off from=20 the higher values needed for idle to lower values.  So now that = I could=20 see exactly which bars were causing the Air/Fuel ratio indictor go = lean, I=20 could start increasing those specific fuel Map bars.  It took = quite a=20 bit of increase across a region of about 3-4 bars (manifold pressure = bins)=20 but I finally got it to the point there was absolutely no hint of a = stumble=20 or sag as the engine staged.

 

So at = least in my=20 case, it was a case of the engine just being too lean in that = region. =20 I hypothesize that when for an instance when the EC2 cuts from  = the two=20 primary injectors pumping all the fuel into the primary runners (and = at this=20 point with NO fuel in the secondary runners), that  the mixture = is=20 initially just a bit too lean and it takes an instant of time for = things to=20 get things squared away air/fuel ratio wise.  But, just a guess = on my=20 part.

 

In any = case, if you=20 have Tracy's EM2 you can monitor those bars and see what they tell=20 you.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 = 12:02=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development=20 progress

 

Tracy,

 

 Thanks for the = input. I=20 still havent had a chance to get back to any serious engine tweaking = yet. I=20 too assumed a big step somewhere in the bottom of the MAP=20 table.

 

 You updated my = EC2 in=20 January so I assume it is current or at least pretty close. I redid = the=20 programming after i got it back from you, following the instructions = in the=20 updated manual.

 

 At this point = I'm hesitant=20 to restore defaults because i feel like it is pretty close. = But if I=20 cant get it figured out that is what I'll = do.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW 

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Tracy Crook

To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft

Sent:=20 Monday, July 21, 2008 8:14 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development=20 progress

 

A big=20 step in the MAP table is almost always the problem here. =20 Specifically, it sounds like the low end of the table (low MP) is = too=20 lean.   This would be the point where the MP is at its = lowest=20 point which is usually around 2000 - 2300 rpm (with prop = on).  =20

 

  Don't know what version software = you are=20 running Mike but during the past couple of years the software has = had MANY=20 changes aimed at making the MAP table programming less critical = and=20 easier.  If you have recent software, the best thing to do is = go back=20 to default MAP then program Mode 3 and 2 (in that order) per the=20 instructions before doing ant MAP table programming.  After = doing=20 this. very little table programming is usually needed.  Note = that=20 Mode 2 is no longer the program address range, it is now the = injection=20 dynamic range.  It acts like the low speed / idle jet=20 adjustment in 'carburetor language'.  Mode 3 is the = 'high speed=20 jet' adjustment.

 

You=20 might also try loading the alternate default MAP by resetting = default MAP=20 with the cold start switch UP instead of down.  Remember to = reset the=20 CS down after doing this.

Tracy


 

On=20 Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:

I too still have = intermittent=20 surging issues that havent been fully conquered. Doesnt happen all = the=20 time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 RPM range. Usually happens when = I'm=20 taxiing and back off the throttle. In my case the A/F reading is = useless.=20 The engine surges rhythmically at about a 1Hz rate with RPMs = varying=20 several hundred, MAP varying from high to low (hard to pin down = exact=20 numbers - its moving around too much), and the A/F bouncing back = and forth=20 from the rich stop to the lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always = stops=20 it, but its a little disconcerting (and embarassing) when it = happens=20 (usually as I'm taxiing away from the crowd at the local EAA = chapter while=20 everyone is watching). For a while I thought adding some capacity = to the=20 MAP sensing line (Dave Leonard's suggestion) had cured it, = but not=20 entirely. I'll need to get this figured out before it flies. Could = be a=20 real problem if it happens on short final.

 

I occasionally have = a pretty=20 good backfire at the secondary staging point. The operational = solution=20 seems to be to not linger in the area - just advance the throttle = or=20 retard it right on through and it seems to be OK. Advancing the = throttle=20 too slowly almost guarantees a big pop! I'm told it's = particularly=20 impressive after dark!

 

I havent worked on = the tuning=20 in months while I've been tweaking other little issues in prep for = my DAR=20 inspection. Just about ready to get back to it. I'm sure i'll get = it more=20 or less figured out eventually.

 

Mike = Wills

RV-4 = N144MW

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Mark Steitle

To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft

Sent:=20 Friday, June 20, 2008 7:06 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development=20 progress

 

Chris,

As you've probably read = from the=20 archives surging is usually caused by an overly lean air-fuel=20 ratio.  What is your A/F reading during the surging? =20

Mark S.

On=20 Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Christopher Barber <CBarber@texasattorney.net> = wrote:

Well, to continue = the saga,=20 I have not run the new 13b much since I got it running a few = weeks ago=20 due to the EM2 not showing oil pressure as it should.  It = was=20 giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 etc.  I hand propped = the=20 engine before I ran it and oil pumped through the system = fine....much=20 onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for certainty = ;-). =20 Also, during my short runs everything heated up in the oil = system evenly=20 and the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with coolant = temp. =20 BUT, since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue or an = actual=20 oil system problem I was very cautious about my few short engine = runs.

 

Well, today while = dreading=20 the idea of dropping my pan, I happened across an extra oil = pressure=20 sender (still in the package) I happened to have.  I had = seen it=20 laying around for a while, but didn't give it much thought until = I was=20 thinking about dropping the pan. Low and behold, The problem was = the=20 sender.  I am getting good pressure reading now, along with = coolant=20 and oil temp. Yeah.  I am surprised at the temps as they = seem to be=20 staying in check considering the 95 + degree Houston=20 weather.

 

I am able to start = the=20 engine, shut it down and restart it (something I was not able to = do with=20 the old engine).  It is somewhat difficult, but seems to be = getting=20 easier as I continue to tweak things (ie timing).  I am = trying to=20 do the various tuning via Tracy's manual.  To be honest = a  lot=20 of the information in the manual is seemingly abstract until I = actually=20 get to the step and/or problem.  So, tonight, I got it to = run, and=20 it seems to run better, but......

 

I am having a = surging=20 problem.  It seems intermittent, but it just may be I have = not been=20 setting the throttle quite the same way as I get use to it = all. =20 Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several times now....it = seems as=20 if this is when the engine is near or at idle.  I have not = had a=20 chance to look into this as of yet.  Also, I have gotten a = number=20 of horrendously loud/powerful backfires.  Not sure what = changes as=20 the engine may have run fine.  It backfires when attempting = to=20 start.  I wait a few minutes and it may then start.  = Gee,=20 isn't inconsistent crap fun <g>

 

I just did a = search of the=20 archives on the surging issue, but have just started reading the = 105=20 post on the topic.  Seems our own Mr. Slade had the same = problem=20 back in the day <g>.

 

Well, it is the = middle of my=20 work week and I gotta turn in soon, but I wanted to share that = it seems=20 as if actual progress is being made (hmmmm, wonder what will = screw this=20 positive statement up<g>) as the Saga=20 continues.

 

All the=20 best,

 

Chris

 

 



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C8EC40.4937E0C0--