X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.44.30] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3036973 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:13:39 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.44.30; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so348102yxj.7 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:12:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=YmJd2npFsH6J3yF2Itv8ozFAHx+u/xBt0RwgRo5JZQo=; b=hewsviRfpEZmkTDkPHX7E+4pDOI/q48WS8x/l7Sd0f77WgyqfM1NBSk7/4vFmfYPaA d2LWlozAkz6RYfYm1KBGeBi/BjOjuTqWoMQnGBYAY56nlv8vvqdmmLKmV7GrmPUFlu6U OD/hHVGkGSztiV4bwG5urP1tPzfaj8ZJTWQqQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=mKwfl8qwrYpEDmS9LDBkxXgWyQO4t34h2mBrO0yX/g1tLAFaak0QjI76Se4wxPsv++ udMqK9f9P7wbZyi8kKo6jsx/TnGUdNnyU/bdvCFqEHyKhVdf3yq6b50pl/RdlH8+zCCz 1j0PyvroxIF/kwyFlq0DgRErvP2spv1sE5CY4= Received: by 10.150.97.20 with SMTP id u20mr3380449ybb.122.1216735978639; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.145.16 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1c23473f0807220712t6dfc6c6dt4d304426439fd33@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:12:58 -0700 From: "David Leonard" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progress In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_61985_3347155.1216735978626" References: ------=_Part_61985_3347155.1216735978626 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mike, I second what Ed said. I knonw your panel space is a little tight, but remember that my biggest suggestion was to get Ed's EFI monitor. It has helped me far more than any other single thing I have done. Not just for the mixture map but lately I have been working on injector balance and it is very helpful there as well because you can also see exactly the injector balance both front/rear and side to side. The fuel flow/totalizer is a really nice feature as well, but it was worth it to me just to get the EC2 monitoring functions. Dave Leonard On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: > Mike, > > > > Don't know whether this may apply or not. But, for a number of years, I > always had a stumble when the injector staged (went from 2 to 4). It would > not stop the engine and you never noticed it in flight, but anytime you push > the throttle past the staging point on the ground, it would basically sag > and the Air/Fuel ratio indicator would run off the lean end of the scale. > So I suspected it was a moment of too much air and too little fuel . But, > in any case even though I did try enriching that region it never seemed to > make much difference. > > > > Once I completed my EFISM gadget so I could visually see the fuel map and > where my engine was operating on it, it was very easy to see that the fuel > map dropped off from the higher values needed for idle to lower values. So > now that I could see exactly which bars were causing the Air/Fuel ratio > indictor go lean, I could start increasing those specific fuel Map bars. It > took quite a bit of increase across a region of about 3-4 bars (manifold > pressure bins) but I finally got it to the point there was absolutely no > hint of a stumble or sag as the engine staged. > > > > So at least in my case, it was a case of the engine just being too lean in > that region. I hypothesize that when for an instance when the EC2 cuts > from the two primary injectors pumping all the fuel into the primary > runners (and at this point with NO fuel in the secondary runners), that the > mixture is initially just a bit too lean and it takes an instant of time for > things to get things squared away air/fuel ratio wise. But, just a guess on > my part. > > > > In any case, if you have Tracy's EM2 you can monitor those bars and see > what they tell you. > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:02 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and > development progress > > > > Tracy, > > > > Thanks for the input. I still havent had a chance to get back to any > serious engine tweaking yet. I too assumed a big step somewhere in the > bottom of the MAP table. > > > > You updated my EC2 in January so I assume it is current or at least pretty > close. I redid the programming after i got it back from you, following the > instructions in the updated manual. > > > > At this point I'm hesitant to restore defaults because i feel like it is > pretty close. But if I cant get it figured out that is what I'll do. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Tracy Crook > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 8:14 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and > development progress > > > > A big step in the MAP table is almost always the problem here. > Specifically, it sounds like the low end of the table (low MP) is too > lean. This would be the point where the MP is at its lowest point which is > usually around 2000 - 2300 rpm (with prop on). > > > > Don't know what version software you are running Mike but during the past > couple of years the software has had MANY changes aimed at making the MAP > table programming less critical and easier. If you have recent software, > the best thing to do is go back to default MAP then program Mode 3 and 2 (in > that order) per the instructions before doing ant MAP table programming. > After doing this. very little table programming is usually needed. Note > that Mode 2 is no longer the program address range, it is now the injection > dynamic range. It acts like the low speed / idle jet adjustment in > 'carburetor language'. Mode 3 is the 'high speed jet' adjustment. > > > > You might also try loading the alternate default MAP by resetting default > MAP with the cold start switch UP instead of down. Remember to reset the CS > down after doing this. > > Tracy > > > > > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > > I too still have intermittent surging issues that havent been fully > conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 RPM range. > Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off the throttle. In my case the > A/F reading is useless. The engine surges rhythmically at about a 1Hz rate > with RPMs varying several hundred, MAP varying from high to low (hard to pin > down exact numbers - its moving around too much), and the A/F bouncing back > and forth from the rich stop to the lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always > stops it, but its a little disconcerting (and embarassing) when it happens > (usually as I'm taxiing away from the crowd at the local EAA chapter while > everyone is watching). For a while I thought adding some capacity to the MAP > sensing line (Dave Leonard's suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. > I'll need to get this figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem > if it happens on short final. > > > > I occasionally have a pretty good backfire at the secondary staging point. > The operational solution seems to be to not linger in the area - just > advance the throttle or retard it right on through and it seems to be OK. > Advancing the throttle too slowly almost guarantees a big pop! I'm told it's > particularly impressive after dark! > > > > I havent worked on the tuning in months while I've been tweaking other > little issues in prep for my DAR inspection. Just about ready to get back to > it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less figured out eventually. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Mark Steitle > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Friday, June 20, 2008 7:06 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and > development progress > > > > Chris, > > As you've probably read from the archives surging is usually caused by an > overly lean air-fuel ratio. What is your A/F reading during the surging? > > Mark S. > > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Christopher Barber < > CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote: > > Well, to continue the saga, I have not run the new 13b much since I got it > running a few weeks ago due to the EM2 not showing oil pressure as it > should. It was giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 etc. I hand propped > the engine before I ran it and oil pumped through the system fine....much > onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for certainty ;-). Also, > during my short runs everything heated up in the oil system evenly and the > oil temp stayed pretty much in line with coolant temp. BUT, since I was not > sure if this was a gage/sender issue or an actual oil system problem I was > very cautious about my few short engine runs. > > > > Well, today while dreading the idea of dropping my pan, I happened across > an extra oil pressure sender (still in the package) I happened to have. I > had seen it laying around for a while, but didn't give it much thought until > I was thinking about dropping the pan. Low and behold, The problem was the > sender. I am getting good pressure reading now, along with coolant and oil > temp. Yeah. I am surprised at the temps as they seem to be staying in check > considering the 95 + degree Houston weather. > > > > I am able to start the engine, shut it down and restart it (something I was > not able to do with the old engine). It is somewhat difficult, but seems to > be getting easier as I continue to tweak things (ie timing). I am trying to > do the various tuning via Tracy's manual. To be honest a lot of the > information in the manual is seemingly abstract until I actually get to the > step and/or problem. So, tonight, I got it to run, and it seems to run > better, but...... > > > > I am having a surging problem. It seems intermittent, but it just may be I > have not been setting the throttle quite the same way as I get use to it > all. Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several times now....it seems > as if this is when the engine is near or at idle. I have not had a chance > to look into this as of yet. Also, I have gotten a number of horrendously > loud/powerful backfires. Not sure what changes as the engine may have run > fine. It backfires when attempting to start. I wait a few minutes and it > may then start. Gee, isn't inconsistent crap fun > > > > I just did a search of the archives on the surging issue, but have just > started reading the 105 post on the topic. Seems our own Mr. Slade had the > same problem back in the day . > > > > Well, it is the middle of my work week and I gotta turn in soon, but I > wanted to share that it seems as if actual progress is being made (hmmmm, > wonder what will screw this positive statement up) as the Saga continues. > > > > All the best, > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_Part_61985_3347155.1216735978626 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Mike,
 
I second what Ed said.
 
I knonw your panel space is a little tight, but remember that my bigge= st suggestion was to get Ed's EFI monitor.  It has helped me far m= ore than any other single thing I have done.  Not just for the mi= xture map but lately I have been working on injector balance and it is very= helpful there as well because you can also see exactly the injector balanc= e both front/rear and side to side.
 
The fuel flow/totalizer is a really nice feature as well, but it was w= orth it to me just to get the EC2 monitoring functions.
 
Dave Leonard

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Ed Anderson &l= t;eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Mike,

 

Don't know whether this may apply o= r not.  But, for a number of years, I always had a stumble when the in= jector staged (went from 2 to 4).  It would not stop the engine and yo= u never noticed it in flight, but anytime you push the throttle past the st= aging point on the ground,  it would basically sag and the Air/Fuel ra= tio indicator would run off the lean end of the scale.  So I suspected= it was a moment of too much air and too little fuel .  But, in any ca= se even though I did  try enriching that region it never seemed to mak= e much difference.

 

Once I completed my EFISM gadget so= I could visually see the fuel map and where my engine was operating on it,= it was very easy to see that the fuel map dropped off from the higher valu= es needed for idle to lower values.  So now that I could see exactly w= hich bars were causing the Air/Fuel ratio indictor go lean, I could start i= ncreasing those specific fuel Map bars.  It took quite a bit of increa= se across a region of about 3-4 bars (manifold pressure bins) but I finally= got it to the point there was absolutely no hint of a stumble or sag as th= e engine staged.

 

So at least in my case, it was a ca= se of the engine just being too lean in that region.  I hypothesize th= at when for an instance when the EC2 cuts from  the two primary inject= ors pumping all the fuel into the primary runners (and at this point with N= O fuel in the secondary runners), that  the mixture is initially just = a bit too lean and it takes an instant of time for things to get things squ= ared away air/fuel ratio wise.  But, just a guess on my part.

 

In any case, if you have Tracy's EM= 2 you can monitor those bars and see what they tell you.

 

Ed

 

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 200= 8 12:02 AM
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development = progress

Tracy,

 Thanks for the input. I still havent had a chance to get = back to any serious engine tweaking yet. I too assumed a big step somewhere= in the bottom of the MAP table.

 You updated my EC2 in January so I assume it is current o= r at least pretty close. I redid the programming after i got it back from y= ou, following the instructions in the updated manual.

 At this point I'm hesitant to restore defaults becaus= e i feel like it is pretty close. But if I cant get it figured out tha= t is what I'll do.

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW 

----- Original Message -----

From: Tracy Crook <= /p>

Sent: Monday, = July 21, 2008 8:14 AM

Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progres= s

rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:=

I too still have intermittent surging issues that havent been f= ully conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 RPM r= ange. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off the throttle. In my= case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges rhythmically at about a= 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, MAP varying from high to low (= hard to pin down exact numbers - its moving around too much), and the A/F b= ouncing back and forth from the rich stop to the lean stop. Fiddling with m= ixture always stops it, but its a little disconcerting (and embarassing) wh= en it happens (usually as I'm taxiing away from the crowd at the local = EAA chapter while everyone is watching). For a while I thought adding some = capacity to the MAP sensing line (Dave Leonard's suggestion) had c= ured it, but not entirely. I'll need to get this figured out before it = flies. Could be a real problem if it happens on short final.<= /p>

I occasionally have a pretty good backfire at the secondary sta= ging point. The operational solution seems to be to not linger in the area = - just advance the throttle or retard it right on through and it seems to b= e OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost guarantees a big pop! I= 'm told it's particularly impressive after dark!

I havent worked on the tuning in months while I've been twe= aking other little issues in prep for my DAR inspection. Just about ready t= o get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less figured out eve= ntually.

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

Sent: Friday, = June 20, 2008 7:06 PM

Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progres= s

= Chris,

As you've probably read = from the archives surging is usually caused by an overly lean air-fuel rati= o.  What is your A/F reading during the surging? 

Mark S.

CBarber@texasattorney.net= > wrote:

Well, to continue the saga, I have not run the new 13b much sin= ce I got it running a few weeks ago due to the EM2 not showing oil pressure= as it should.  It was giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 etc.&nbs= p; I hand propped the engine before I ran it and oil pumped through the sys= tem fine....much onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for certainty= ;-).  Also, during my short runs everything heated up in the oil syst= em evenly and the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with coolant temp.&nb= sp; BUT, since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue or an actual = oil system problem I was very cautious about my few short engine runs.

Well, today while dreading the idea of dropping my pan, I happe= ned across an extra oil pressure sender (still in the package) I happened t= o have.  I had seen it laying around for a while, but didn't give = it much thought until I was thinking about dropping the pan. Low and behold= , The problem was the sender.  I am getting good pressure reading now,= along with coolant and oil temp. Yeah.  I am surprised at the temps a= s they seem to be staying in check considering the 95 + degree Houston weat= her.

I am able to start the engine, shut it down and restart it (som= ething I was not able to do with the old engine).  It is somewhat diff= icult, but seems to be getting easier as I continue to tweak things (ie tim= ing).  I am trying to do the various tuning via Tracy's manual.&nb= sp; To be honest a  lot of the information in the manual is seemingly = abstract until I actually get to the step and/or problem.  So, tonight= , I got it to run, and it seems to run better, but......

I am having a surging problem.  It seems intermittent, but= it just may be I have not been setting the throttle quite the same way as = I get use to it all.  Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several = times now....it seems as if this is when the engine is near or at idle.&nbs= p; I have not had a chance to look into this as of yet.  Also, I have = gotten a number of horrendously loud/powerful backfires.  Not sure wha= t changes as the engine may have run fine.  It backfires when attempti= ng to start.  I wait a few minutes and it may then start.  Gee, i= sn't inconsistent crap fun <g>

I just did a search of the archives on the surging issue, but h= ave just started reading the 105 post on the topic.  Seems our own Mr.= Slade had the same problem back in the day <g>.

Well, it is the middle of my work week and I gotta turn in soon= , but I wanted to share that it seems as if actual progress is being made (= hmmmm, wonder what will screw this positive statement up<g>) as the S= aga continues.

All the best,

Chris

http://www.eset.com<= /a>



<= br>--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
------=_Part_61985_3347155.1216735978626--