X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3036523 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:03:06 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080722040226.HROA6175.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:02:26 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id ss2R1Z0061CvZmk03s2TEM; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:02:27 -0400 Message-ID: <004401c8ebaf$c10fa010$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progress Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:02:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8EB75.145D77F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8EB75.145D77F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, Thanks for the input. I still havent had a chance to get back to any = serious engine tweaking yet. I too assumed a big step somewhere in the = bottom of the MAP table. You updated my EC2 in January so I assume it is current or at least = pretty close. I redid the programming after i got it back from you, = following the instructions in the updated manual. At this point I'm hesitant to restore defaults because i feel like it = is pretty close. But if I cant get it figured out that is what I'll do. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development progress A big step in the MAP table is almost always the problem here. = Specifically, it sounds like the low end of the table (low MP) is too = lean. This would be the point where the MP is at its lowest point = which is usually around 2000 - 2300 rpm (with prop on). =20 Don't know what version software you are running Mike but during the = past couple of years the software has had MANY changes aimed at making = the MAP table programming less critical and easier. If you have recent = software, the best thing to do is go back to default MAP then program = Mode 3 and 2 (in that order) per the instructions before doing ant MAP = table programming. After doing this. very little table programming is = usually needed. Note that Mode 2 is no longer the program address = range, it is now the injection dynamic range. It acts like the low = speed / idle jet adjustment in 'carburetor language'. Mode 3 is the = 'high speed jet' adjustment. You might also try loading the alternate default MAP by resetting = default MAP with the cold start switch UP instead of down. Remember to = reset the CS down after doing this. Tracy =20 On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Mike Wills wrote: I too still have intermittent surging issues that havent been fully = conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 RPM = range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off the throttle. In my = case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges rhythmically at about = a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, MAP varying from high to = low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its moving around too much), and = the A/F bouncing back and forth from the rich stop to the lean stop. = Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a little disconcerting = (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm taxiing away from the = crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is watching). For a while = I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing line (Dave Leonard's = suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll need to get this = figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if it happens on = short final. I occasionally have a pretty good backfire at the secondary staging = point. The operational solution seems to be to not linger in the area - = just advance the throttle or retard it right on through and it seems to = be OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost guarantees a big pop! = I'm told it's particularly impressive after dark! I havent worked on the tuning in months while I've been tweaking = other little issues in prep for my DAR inspection. Just about ready to = get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less figured out = eventually. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress Chris,=20 As you've probably read from the archives surging is usually = caused by an overly lean air-fuel ratio. What is your A/F reading = during the surging? =20 Mark S. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Well, to continue the saga, I have not run the new 13b much = since I got it running a few weeks ago due to the EM2 not showing oil = pressure as it should. It was giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 = etc. I hand propped the engine before I ran it and oil pumped through = the system fine....much onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for = certainty ;-). Also, during my short runs everything heated up in the = oil system evenly and the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with = coolant temp. BUT, since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue = or an actual oil system problem I was very cautious about my few short = engine runs. Well, today while dreading the idea of dropping my pan, I = happened across an extra oil pressure sender (still in the package) I = happened to have. I had seen it laying around for a while, but didn't = give it much thought until I was thinking about dropping the pan. Low = and behold, The problem was the sender. I am getting good pressure = reading now, along with coolant and oil temp. Yeah. I am surprised at = the temps as they seem to be staying in check considering the 95 + = degree Houston weather. I am able to start the engine, shut it down and restart it = (something I was not able to do with the old engine). It is somewhat = difficult, but seems to be getting easier as I continue to tweak things = (ie timing). I am trying to do the various tuning via Tracy's manual. = To be honest a lot of the information in the manual is seemingly = abstract until I actually get to the step and/or problem. So, tonight, = I got it to run, and it seems to run better, but...... I am having a surging problem. It seems intermittent, but it = just may be I have not been setting the throttle quite the same way as I = get use to it all. Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several = times now....it seems as if this is when the engine is near or at idle. = I have not had a chance to look into this as of yet. Also, I have = gotten a number of horrendously loud/powerful backfires. Not sure what = changes as the engine may have run fine. It backfires when attempting = to start. I wait a few minutes and it may then start. Gee, isn't = inconsistent crap fun I just did a search of the archives on the surging issue, but = have just started reading the 105 post on the topic. Seems our own Mr. = Slade had the same problem back in the day . Well, it is the middle of my work week and I gotta turn in soon, = but I wanted to share that it seems as if actual progress is being made = (hmmmm, wonder what will screw this positive statement up) as the = Saga continues. All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C8EB75.145D77F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
 
 Thanks for the input. I still = havent had a=20 chance to get back to any serious engine tweaking yet. I too assumed a = big step=20 somewhere in the bottom of the MAP table.
 
 You updated my EC2 in January so = I assume it=20 is current or at least pretty close. I redid the programming after i got = it back=20 from you, following the instructions in the updated manual.
 
 At this point I'm hesitant to = restore=20 defaults because i feel like it is pretty close. But if I cant get = it=20 figured out that is what I'll do.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 = 8:14 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

A big step in the MAP table is almost always the problem = here. =20 Specifically, it sounds like the low end of the table (low MP) is too=20 lean.   This would be the point where the MP is at its = lowest point=20 which is usually around 2000 - 2300 rpm (with prop on).   =
 
  Don't know what version software you are running Mike but = during=20 the past couple of years the software has had MANY changes aimed at = making the=20 MAP table programming less critical and easier.  If you have = recent=20 software, the best thing to do is go back to default MAP then program = Mode 3=20 and 2 (in that order) per the instructions before doing ant MAP table=20 programming.  After doing this. very little table programming is = usually=20 needed.  Note that Mode 2 is no longer the program address range, = it is=20 now the injection dynamic range.  It acts like the low speed /=20 idle jet adjustment in 'carburetor language'.  Mode 3 = is the=20 'high speed jet' adjustment.
 
You might also try loading the alternate default MAP by resetting = default=20 MAP with the cold start switch UP instead of down.  Remember to = reset the=20 CS down after doing this.
Tracy

 
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
I too still have intermittent = surging issues=20 that havent been fully conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always = in the=20 2000 - 3000 RPM range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off = the=20 throttle. In my case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges=20 rhythmically at about a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, = MAP=20 varying from high to low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its = moving around=20 too much), and the A/F bouncing back and forth from the rich stop to = the=20 lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a little=20 disconcerting (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm = taxiing away=20 from the crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is watching). = For a=20 while I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing line (Dave = Leonard's=20 suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll need to get = this=20 figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if it happens = on short=20 final.
 
I occasionally have a pretty good = backfire at=20 the secondary staging point. The operational solution seems to be to = not=20 linger in the area - just advance the throttle or retard it right on = through=20 and it seems to be OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost = guarantees a big pop! I'm told it's particularly impressive after=20 dark!
 
I havent worked on the tuning in = months while=20 I've been tweaking other little issues in prep for my DAR = inspection. Just=20 about ready to get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less = figured out=20 eventually.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Mark Steitle
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 7:06=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = The SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

Chris,

As you've probably read from the = archives=20 surging is usually caused by an overly lean air-fuel ratio.  = What is=20 your A/F reading during the surging? 

Mark S.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, = Christopher Barber=20 <CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
Well, to continue the saga, I = have not run=20 the new 13b much since I got it running a few weeks ago due to = the EM2=20 not showing oil pressure as it should.  It was giving me = erratic=20 readings like -1, -3 etc.  I hand propped the engine before = I ran=20 it and oil pumped through the system fine....much onto the = hangar=20 floor...alas, the sacrifices for certainty ;-).  Also, = during my=20 short runs everything heated up in the oil system evenly and the = oil=20 temp stayed pretty much in line with coolant temp.  BUT, = since I=20 was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue or an actual oil = system=20 problem I was very cautious about my few short engine = runs.
 
Well, today while dreading the = idea of=20 dropping my pan, I happened across an extra oil pressure sender = (still=20 in the package) I happened to have.  I had seen it laying = around=20 for a while, but didn't give it much thought until I was = thinking about=20 dropping the pan. Low and behold, The problem was the = sender.  I am=20 getting good pressure reading now, along with coolant and oil = temp.=20 Yeah.  I am surprised at the temps as they seem to be = staying in=20 check considering the 95 + degree Houston weather.
 
I am able to start the engine, = shut it down=20 and restart it (something I was not able to do with the old=20 engine).  It is somewhat difficult, but seems to be getting = easier=20 as I continue to tweak things (ie timing).  I am trying to = do the=20 various tuning via Tracy's manual.  To be honest a  = lot of the=20 information in the manual is seemingly abstract until I actually = get to=20 the step and/or problem.  So, tonight, I got it to run, and = it=20 seems to run better, but......
 
I am having a surging = problem.  It=20 seems intermittent, but it just may be I have not been setting = the=20 throttle quite the same way as I get use to it all.  Also, = I have=20 had the coil C/B pop on me several times now....it seems as if = this is=20 when the engine is near or at idle.  I have not had a = chance to=20 look into this as of yet.  Also, I have gotten a number of=20 horrendously loud/powerful backfires.  Not sure what = changes as the=20 engine may have run fine.  It backfires when attempting to=20 start.  I wait a few minutes and it may then start.  = Gee,=20 isn't inconsistent crap fun <g>
 
I just did a search of the = archives on the=20 surging issue, but have just started reading the 105 post on the = topic.  Seems our own Mr. Slade had the same problem back = in the=20 day <g>.
 
Well, it is the middle of my = work week and=20 I gotta turn in soon, but I wanted to share that it seems as if = actual=20 progress is being made (hmmmm, wonder what will screw this = positive=20 statement up<g>) as the Saga continues.
 
All the best,
 
Chris


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