X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.239] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2936611 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 May 2008 07:45:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.239; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id r21so898080wxc.25 for ; Sat, 24 May 2008 04:45:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=RDMvSB1jYeyFXbRo074JgQcqJFe4EQCB8xRl8d362mo=; b=ZY+3HLCvbgaOsdUaPFAnwEBlW3DVwhjESd8SMg5RWt0Go2GivKnXbnGRJ73SXxqZmdqo0+rPjvRCbH7KG3UQMHB+cLpVtEMcqRVeh3CVL8m7onCtzl/VGQuH4780Wf223J5r63SbZZkwXUCHVebW/rph0Ml0ci0k/xj1oVWRF/s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=p4j1u1akoZnR8JC+RyXZ7PFKQ2Kg6xAC8kOxG7R7ruzSJl+m0yYVaiBUDfoXsbUQ38LZ9gcUGxg28vugQJ3+0bVpqosmcErU2aJUyQR7JbFlOOtrF7oUsgoyXLAmRtQinqSuixhKxAbeT40QdiV3of72Vo4afXqUuASlUVHpOrU= Received: by 10.70.110.2 with SMTP id i2mr2163138wxc.81.1211629504485; Sat, 24 May 2008 04:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.74.18 with HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2008 04:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0805240445r29eec39fs229618d5495d1802@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 06:45:04 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13532_8788923.1211629504488" References: ------=_Part_13532_8788923.1211629504488 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bill, Where is the pressure regulator located in the system? (A picture/sketch would sure be nice) Mark On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Bob White wrote: > Hi Bill, > > When I first installed my system I had two of the small inline filters > which I think were similar to the ones you are using. Somewhere along > the way, Buly mentioned a different filter. It's about the same size > as an oil filter. Summit Racing P/N PRM-81794. It will hold many > times more contaminants than the small filters. I felt comfortable > using one filter for both pumps. If you have the room, you might > consider it. No new ideas on where the contamination is coming from. > > Bob W. > > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 22:06:39 -0400 > "Bill Bradburry" wrote: > > > Kelly, > > > > The only pressure that I have available is driven by the fuel regulator= . > It > > is set at 36 # at sea level pressure. It should maintain that pressure > when > > the engine is running WOT. It would be less at idle. I think 30. Whe= n > I > > turn the secondary pump on, the pressure goes up 2-3 lbs. > > > > Pressure on both sides of the filters would give an early warning of th= is > > problem, but I have not heard that anyone has installed that type of > > instrumentation. > > > > One thing that has come of this problem is that I have realized that I > have > > to way to turn the primary pump off since it is on the same switch as t= he > > EC-2 power. I need to correct this as well. > > > > > > > > Bill B > > > > _____ > > > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > > Behalf Of Kelly Troyer > > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 8:48 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem > > > > Bill, > > > > What is the fuel pressure on the primary pump compared to the > secondary > > > > pump ??.........These are rotary vane pumps (I do not know the > composition > > > > of the vanes) and will gradually wear........They use the fuel to both > cool > > and > > > > lubricate their bearings and vanes.........If run dry for any reason th= ey > > will self destruct very rapidly and could produce the black sludge you > are > > seeing......... > > > > > > > > -- > > Kelly Troyer > > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Bill Bradburry" > > : -------------- > > > > I could use a little help on this problem. I apologize for the length= . > > > > > > > > My engine recently started to show signs of fuel starvation. Cutting ou= t > > above about 3K rpm. It would just seem to go from 3K to idle. I was > > running on my primary fuel pump, so I turned on the secondary and the > engine > > would start to run normally. (Not like gangbusters, but NORMALLY. My > max > > static rpm has been about 52-5300 rpm and I have felt that it was not > > getting enough fuel to run up to my goal of 6K static) > > > > > > > > I decided that I had a filter plugged, and fearing the gasohol that th= ey > > are now selling all over Florida, I opened up my Gascolator. It was ok= . > I > > found a couple of wisps of white fibers. Could be fiberglass dust, cou= ld > be > > spider webs, something like that. I don't think that I have had any > > gasohol in the plane, but it is probably possible. But the Gascolator > was > > fine. > > > > > > > > I then opened up the JEGS inline filter on the primary pump and the > element > > was covered with a black sludge. It seemed to be almost completely > blocked. > > This stuff looked like maybe it could have come from the inside of the = SS > > braided hose. > > > > > > > > I checked the secondary pumps filter and it was fine. I have not used > this > > secondary pump except on rare occasions to check for pressure changes, > > leaks, etc.. > > > > > > > > But for that matter, I have only run three 5 gal cans of gas in the pla= ne > > totally. One 5 gal can in each wing, then another in the right side, a= nd > I > > am now pulling out of the left tank which has the fourth 5 gal in it. > > > > > > > > So, like I said, I at first thought that it was a rubber residue from > when I > > installed the hose ends on the Aeroquip hoses because it sort of looked > like > > that. Then as I drove home, I remembered that there was none of this > stuff > > in the Gascolator. (I think that some should have made it there as the= re > is > > one -8 hose in front of the Gascolator) There is only about a foot of = -8 > > hose in front of the fuel pumps after the Gascolator, so now I am > thinking > > that maybe it came from the fuel pump. > > > > > > > > Is there anything inside the pump that could cause a black sludge if it > > started to crap out? What would I look for to check if the pump is out > or > > going out. Has anyone else had any similar problem? I recently heard = a > > squealing sound from the area of the pumps, but at the time I thought > that > > it was bubbles going through the pump. I was close to empty on the rig= ht > > tank and thought that it was sucking air. I switched tanks and the sou= nd > > went away. > > > > > > > > I have not yet checked my injectors. Two reasons: I have no idea of > how > > to do it and would not know what to look for. Is the 40 micron screen > fine > > enough to keep anything from getting plugged up in the injectors? If > not, > > what do I look for, and where? > > > > > > > > I would greatly appreciate some input as to your thoughts on this. How > > would you proceed? > > > > > > > > My fuel system goes: Finger strainer in tank, =BD inch aluminum line to > Andair > > dual valve (switches both supply and return to same tank), Aeroquip -8 = SS > > braided line, boost pump, Aeroquip -8 SS braided line, Andair Gascolato= r, > > Aeroquip -8 SS braided line about one foot to splitter to two fuel pump= s, > > (these are the pumps that Tracy sells), each pump is followed by a JEGS > > billet in line fuel filter with a stainless 40 micron element. Then a > > splitter to bring them back together to Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, > primary > > injector rail, Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, secondary injector rail, > > Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, Aeroqu= ip > -4 > > SS braided line to the valve and back to the tank. The tanks are > fiberglass > > with ProSeal. This is a Lancair Legacy, Renesis engine. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help. > > > > > > > > Bill B > > > > > > > -- > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > ------=_Part_13532_8788923.1211629504488 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bill,

Where is the pressure regulator located in the system?  = (A picture/sketch would sure be nice)

Mark


On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
Hi Bill,

When I first installed my system I had two of the small inline filters
which I think were similar to the ones you are using.  Somewhere along=
the way, Buly mentioned a different filter.  It's about the same s= ize
as an oil filter.  Summit Racing P/N PRM-81794.  It will hold man= y
times more contaminants than the small filters.  I felt comfortable using one filter for both pumps.  If you have the room, you might
consider it.  No new ideas on where the contamination is coming from.<= br>
Bob W.


On Fri, 23 May 2008 22:06:39 -0400
"Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Kelly,
>
> The only pressure that I have available is driven by the fuel regulato= r.  It
> is set at 36 # at sea level pressure.  It should maintain that pr= essure when
> the engine is running WOT.  It would be less at idle.  I thi= nk 30.  When I
> turn the secondary pump on, the pressure goes up 2-3 lbs.
>
> Pressure on both sides of the filters would give an early warning of t= his
> problem, but I have not heard that anyone has installed that type of > instrumentation.
>
> One thing that has come of this problem is that I have realized that I= have
> to way to turn the primary pump off since it is on the same switch as = the
> EC-2 power.  I need to correct this as well.
>
>
>
> Bill B
>
>   _____
>
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
> Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 8:48 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem
>
> Bill,
>
>    What is the fuel pressure on the primary pump compared to= the secondary
>
> pump ??.........These are rotary vane pumps (I do not know the composi= tion
>
> of the vanes) and will gradually wear........They use the fuel to both= cool
> and
>
> lubricate their bearings and vanes.........If run dry for any reason t= hey
> will self destruct very rapidly and could produce the black sludge you= are
> seeing.........
>
>
>
> --
> Kelly Troyer
> "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
> "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Bill Bradburry"
> <bbradburry@bellsouth.n= et>: --------------
>
>  I could use a little help on this problem.  I apologize for= the length.
>
>
>
> My engine recently started to show signs of fuel starvation. Cutting o= ut
> above about 3K rpm.  It would just seem to go from 3K to idle. &n= bsp;I was
> running on my primary fuel pump, so I turned on the secondary and the = engine
> would start to run normally.  (Not like gangbusters, but NORMALLY= .  My max
> static rpm has been about 52-5300 rpm and I have felt that it was not<= br> > getting enough fuel to run up to my goal of 6K static)
>
>
>
> I decided that I had a filter plugged,  and fearing the gasohol t= hat they
> are now selling all over Florida, I opened up my Gascolator.  It = was ok.  I
> found a couple of wisps of white fibers.  Could be fiberglass dus= t, could be
> spider  webs, something like that.  I don't think that I hav= e had any
> gasohol in the plane, but it is probably possible.  But the Gasco= lator was
> fine.
>
>
>
> I then opened up the JEGS inline filter on the primary pump and the el= ement
> was covered with a black sludge.  It seemed to be almost complete= ly blocked.
> This stuff looked like maybe it could have come from the inside of the= SS
> braided hose.
>
>
>
> I checked the secondary pumps filter and it was fine.  I have not= used this
> secondary pump except on rare occasions to check for pressure changes,=
> leaks, etc..
>
>
>
> But for that matter, I have only run three 5 gal cans of gas in the pl= ane
> totally.  One 5 gal can in each wing, then another in the right s= ide, and I
> am now pulling out of the left tank which has the fourth 5 gal in it.<= br> >
>
>
> So, like I said, I at first thought that it was a rubber residue from = when I
> installed the hose ends on the Aeroquip hoses because it sort of looke= d like
> that.  Then as I drove home, I remembered that there was none of = this stuff
> in the Gascolator.  (I think that some should have made it there = as there is
> one -8 hose in front of the Gascolator)  There is only about a fo= ot of -8
> hose in front of the fuel pumps after the Gascolator, so now I am thin= king
> that maybe it came from the fuel pump.
>
>
>
> Is there anything inside the pump that could cause a black sludge if i= t
> started to crap out?  What would I look for to check if the pump = is out or
> going out.  Has anyone else had any similar problem?  I rece= ntly heard a
> squealing sound from the area of the pumps, but at the time I thought = that
> it was bubbles going through the pump.  I was close to empty on t= he right
> tank and thought that it was sucking air.  I switched tanks and t= he sound
> went away.
>
>
>
> I have not yet checked my injectors.  Two  reasons:  I = have no idea of how
> to do it and would not know what to look for.  Is the 40 micron s= creen fine
> enough to keep anything from getting plugged up in the injectors? &nbs= p;If not,
> what do I look for, and where?
>
>
>
> I would greatly appreciate some input as to your thoughts on this. &nb= sp;How
> would you proceed?
>
>
>
> My fuel system goes: Finger strainer in tank, =BD inch aluminum line t= o Andair
> dual valve (switches both supply and return to same tank), Aeroquip -8= SS
> braided line, boost pump, Aeroquip -8 SS braided line, Andair Gascolat= or,
> Aeroquip -8 SS braided line about one foot to splitter to two fuel pum= ps,
> (these are the pumps that Tracy sells), each pump is followed by a JEG= S
> billet in line fuel filter with a stainless 40 micron element.  T= hen a
> splitter to bring them back together to Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, p= rimary
> injector rail, Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, secondary injector rail, > Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, Aeroq= uip -4
> SS braided line to the valve and back to the tank.  The tanks are= fiberglass
> with ProSeal.  This is a Lancair Legacy, Renesis engine.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
>
>
> Bill B
>
>


--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/

--
Homepage:  htt= p://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/li= sts/flyrotary/List.html

------=_Part_13532_8788923.1211629504488--