X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [209.85.198.243] (HELO rv-out-0506.google.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.2) with ESMTP id 2869689 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:21:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.243; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id k29so1580262rvb.7 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:20:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:importance:in-reply-to:x-mimeole; bh=0/AzCIEPEIR0eSeYTBhOqZKJ6yOOaSgkeAoonmgYsdk=; b=EaCCPUrQfFguIoNHyCmFwec3+bYS7KnW7T/iwVhotiLAc77iaG/VltryIHhkL+k1ZCPUWo6Fvo+7WksuR6G+jFFCjQpNoqTj54FgM4D2EJ06Lhmq20dziI9ZUsHninwkZQFMEFCCGmAG8t2RW1/fYIr7oo+NkEUL6niOpypQPtw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:importance:in-reply-to:x-mimeole; b=dy8vviTpApNyFs2LJGvgRzanEd4uz0aocTikOzQ95HcvOFHNPopw7O8aZgAJgVp34UUvj5YVP2WmmoD90ZgDTtx3GTydrEGLG3mdcBbdAKiVrB3IEz+ScKP6kHq2M5n1RFZWmVkyHd9Nt+xpaoNgKJbKGNgYdyz7+MruyHWyKFM= Received: by 10.140.132.8 with SMTP id f8mr1079132rvd.198.1209014457256; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from Endurance ( [154.5.230.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f42sm1306170rvb.9.2008.04.23.22.20.55 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:20:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Todd Bartrim" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Cooling sytem changes- Velocity 20B Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:20:50 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C8A590.49412960" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C8A590.49412960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Al; Just a couple of questions to clarify a couple of things… Are you still using a separate air/oil cooler as well, or did you convert the oil cooler to another coolant rad? I’ve considered adding a small cooler like yours in addition to my 2 Evap cores (coolant) and Mazda oil cooler, just to “balance” out the heat. I always found that the oil temps lagged far behind the coolant temps (in both heating and cooling), so I felt it may add some value to making temps more stable. It wasn’t a big problem but just something I thought could use some improving. But then I had a kid and got so darn busy with other things that I don’t have time to fly anymore so it’s the least of my problems…. But I’m working on getting back there… soon, I hope! It seems to have worked very well for you. You’re using a turbo on that 20B as well aren’t you? Because as I’m sure you know, the turbo will add a significant amount of heat. I’m always surprised that those who have custom rads made, don’t incorporate an oil cooling loop through an end tank, just like a transmission cooler but with a little more capacity. Todd Bartrim Turbo 13B RV9 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:23 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling sytem changes- Velocity 20B Brief background: the oil temp was getting too high on extended climb - coolant temp was OK, but I knew the wing-root radiator was not doing much due to low air flow. Mods: I installed an oil/water cooler in the return line from the in-cowl radiator, I re-did the scoop and the shape of the diffuser to the wing-root rad, and installed an in-line 170F thermostat in the feed to that rad. A number of other small fixes; and converted from the OMP injecting pan oil to using pre-mix. I put Mobile 1 15-50 in the pan. First test, a ground run to check everything out find leaks, purge air etc. After that some power running on the ground. The oil temp was no longer the limiting factor, and stayed closer to coolant temp as expected. What wasn’t expected is that overall cooling on the ground was significantly better. The only explanation could be that the new scoop and diffuser are so much better, just sitting face into the 10-12 kt breeze helped the cooling. First test flight: OAT 68. Climbed to 3000’ and orbit the field. Temps stayed well below limits in climb, and at cruise conditions the oil was 165 and the coolant 140. Too cool? Not even up the 170 temp of the #2 rad. I had drilled some small holes in the thermostat to give at least some flow, apparently even that was too much. Second flight: Went east over the hills to the dessert where the temp a Borrego Springs was 85. I did a touch and go; then climbed at 1500-2000 fpm from 800’ up to 6000’. Oil stayed below 210; coolant about 195. Cruising back the coolant temp again dropped to about 145. Is it not a good idea to run the coolant that low? I can change out the thermostat and not drill holes in it. The oil cooler I installed is a MoCal Laminova. These had also been sold by Aeroquip, but not any more. Not very high capacity, but very compact and fits where I wanted to put it (on the firewall, below the filters, where my HP3001 filters no longer fit:-)). (photos 1 & 2) I had wanted to use the Setrab TOC300, but they are not currently making those. On the re-do of the scoop and diffuser, I made a mold and formed a unit the would fit inside of the previous cutout in the wing. It is a curved adaptation of the K&W coordinates, and includes provision for bleeding a ¼” boundary layer to the top edge of the core. (photos 3 & 4). My previous flow measurements had indicated the BL was about ¼”. Whatever; it seems to be working very well. Perhaps had I done that same treatment to the oil cooler scoop and diffuser I could have skipped the complex task of installing the oil/water cooler. Nah, don’t even go there! BTW; Tracy. I have not noticed any increase in power with the pre-mix. But then I’m not using any Marvel Mystery oil. It must be those high power additives in the MMO I mentioned that make the difference:-) Al ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C8A590.49412960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi= Al;

        = ;    Just a couple of questions to clarify a couple of things… Are you still = using a separate air/oil cooler as well, or did you convert the oil cooler to another = coolant rad? I’ve considered adding a small cooler like yours in addition = to my 2 Evap cores (coolant) and Mazda oil cooler, just to “balance” out = the heat. I always found that the oil temps lagged far behind the coolant temps (in both = heating and cooling), so I felt it may add some value to making temps more = stable. It wasn’t a big problem but just something I thought could use some = improving. But then I had a kid and got so darn busy with other things that I = don’t have time to fly anymore so it’s the least of my problems…. But = I’m working on getting back there… soon, I hope!

        = ;    It seems to have worked very well for you. You’re using a turbo on = that 20B as well aren’t you? Because as I’m sure you know, the turbo = will add a significant amount of heat.

        = ;    I’m always surprised that those who have custom rads made, don’t = incorporate an oil cooling loop through an end tank, just like a transmission cooler but = with a little more capacity.

 

Todd Bartrim<= o:p>

Turbo 13B = RV9

<= span class=3DEmailStyle18> 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, April = 23, 2008 10:23 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Cooling sytem changes- Velocity 20B

 

Brief background: the oil temp was getting too high on extended climb - = coolant temp was OK, but I knew the wing-root radiator was not doing much due to low = air flow.

 <= /font><= /p>

Mods:  I installed an oil/water cooler in the return line from the in-cowl = radiator, I re-did the scoop and the shape of the diffuser to the wing-root rad, and = installed an in-line 170F thermostat in the feed to that rad. A number of other = small fixes; and converted from the OMP injecting pan oil to using = pre-mix.  I put Mobile 1 15-50 in the pan.<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

First test, a ground run to check everything out find leaks, purge air etc.  After that some power running on the ground. The oil temp was no = longer the limiting factor, and stayed closer to coolant temp as = expected.  What wasn’t expected is that overall cooling on the ground was = significantly better.  The only explanation could be that the new scoop and diffuser are = so much better, just sitting face into the 10-12 kt breeze helped the = cooling.<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

First test flight: OAT 68.  Climbed to 3000’ and orbit the field. = Temps stayed well below limits in climb, and at cruise conditions the oil was 165 and = the coolant 140.  Too cool?  Not even up the 170 temp of the #2 = rad.  I had drilled some small holes in the thermostat to give at least = some flow, apparently even that was too much.<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

Second flight: Went east over the hills to the dessert where the temp a Borrego Springs was 85.  I did a touch and go; then climbed at 1500-2000 = fpm from 800’ up to 6000’.  Oil stayed below 210; coolant about = 195.  Cruising back the coolant temp again dropped to about 145.<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

Is it not a good idea to run the coolant that low?  I can change out = the thermostat and not drill holes in it.<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

The oil cooler I installed is a MoCal Laminova. These had also been sold by Aeroquip, but not any more. Not very high capacity, but very compact and = fits where I wanted to put it (on the firewall, below the filters, where my = HP3001 filters no longer fitJ).  (photos 1 & 2)  I had wanted to use the = Setrab TOC300, but they are not currently making those. <= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

On the re-do of the scoop and diffuser, I made a mold and formed a unit the = would fit inside of the previous cutout in the wing.  It is a curved = adaptation of the K&W coordinates, and includes provision for bleeding a = =BC” boundary layer to the top edge of the core.  (photos 3 & 4).  My = previous flow measurements had indicated the BL was about =BC”.  = Whatever; it seems to be working very well.  Perhaps had I done that same treatment to = the oil cooler scoop and diffuser I could have skipped the complex task of installing the oil/water cooler.  Nah, don’t even go = there!<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

BTW; Tracy.  I have not noticed any increase in power with the = pre-mix.  But then I’m not using any Marvel Mystery oil.  It must be = those high power additives in the MMO I mentioned that make the = differenceJ

 <= /font><= /p>

Al<= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

 <= /font><= /p>

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